Collaborating for Justice and Mental Health – Episode 42

In March NAMI recognized National Criminal Justice Month, and guest host Hannah Wesolowski, NAMI’s Chief Advocacy Officer, sat down to chat with Bureau of Justice Assistance Director Karhlton Moore about criminal justice and mental health. Tune in to hear about how the Bureau of Justice Assistance is supporting innovation in communities across the country through collaboration between criminal justice systems and mental health organizations. He will also share insights about how 988 is playing a role in justice system diversion and the hope he sees visiting communities across the country.

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

Transcript

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I'm a stat person. Stats and data, we need to utilize those things to move policy. But I think what stories do and stories that are consistent with data, they give us a real world opportunity to touch someone's brain with the data and the stories to touch someone's heart. It's really easy to forget a stat. It's hard to forget someone's story. Sometimes it's the story that lets people know this is important. It's life changing and it's transformational. Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I'm Hannah Wesolowski, NAMI's chief advocacy officer and I am the guest host for today's episode. NAMI started this podcast because we believe hope starts with us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories, and hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one, is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective and we hope that each episode with each conversation brings you in that collective to know you are not alone. March was criminal justice month and we were very excited to talk about the issue of criminal justice in the mental health system, and NAMI launched Overlooked a campaign to highlight real stories about people with mental illness in the criminal justice system. And as we continue with that campaign past March, we're very excited to have on the podcast today Director Karhlton Moore to talk about criminal justice and mental illness. He is the Director of the Bureau of Justice Assistance at the US Department of Justice, or BJA. He was appointed by President Biden to lead BJA in 2022. Prior to joining BJA, Director Moore served as the executive director of Ohio's Office of Criminal Justice Services, where he oversaw state and federal grants for law enforcement, victim assistance, juvenile justice, crime prevention, courts, anti-trafficking efforts, re-entry corrections programs and traffic safety. Not a small purview. He also served as a facilitator for former Ohio Governor John Kasich’s Task Force on Community Police Relations, precursor of the Ohio Collaborative Community Police Advisory Board, a multidisciplinary panel that establishes standards for law enforcement agencies as part of the state's effort to strengthen community police relations. He was also on the National Criminal Justice Association Advisory Council, and Executive Committee and was president of their Board of Directors. NAMI is proud to work closely with NCJA and he has served on the steering committee of the Justice Counts initiative. Director Moore, thank you so much for taking the time to join us on our podcast today. Well, thank you, Hannah, so much. It's a pleasure to be here with you this morning. Well, we appreciate the collaboration with BJA. The work that BJA does is so important to NAMI and the people we represent. But I really want to start there. I think that a lot of people in our audience may not know the name Bureau of Justice Assistance. It's a federal agency that people don't always hear about, but the people in the NAMI community certainly know about the work that you do. Can you share a little bit more about the office you lead and its mission and what you do every day on the issues that NAMI might care about? Definitely. Let me start by just mentioning, you know, prior to coming to BJA, I spent a lot of time working with NAMI, with NAMI Ohio, and had great engagement with them. So I'm very pleased to be able to have the opportunity to continue this relationship while I'm at the Bureau of Justice Assistance. You know, I worked very closely with BJA and I know is known amongst a lot of criminal justice practitioners and stakeholders. But I'm always happy to be able to share a little bit more about our work. So I'll give you kind of a short view and then we can, as we discuss a little bit more, we can talk a little bit more about some of the specific work that we do at BJA. So, you know, BJA was created back in 1984. As a matter of fact, we're celebrating our 40th year. But BJA. was created really to do three things to create safer communities, to reduce violent crime, and to reform our criminal justice system. And when I think about the language that was used back in 1984 to create safer communities, I really think like today, maybe we'd say to create healthy communities. I think healthy communities are safe communities, and we really try to meet that mission in three ways. One is through investments. Just in the last two years, we've invested nearly $5 billion across the country to state, local, tribal, nonprofit efforts. Really the gamut and all the way through the criminal justice system, from the very front end of diversion, pre-arrest diversion and deflection, all the way through to re-entry. And so that's an important part of the work that we do is through investment. But the second thing we do is because just throwing money at a problem does not solve or address the problem. It is the spreading of knowledge and expertise and information and all the lessons that have been shared over the course of the last 40 years and really a lot in the last 20 years has been developed. And we know so much more about what works, what doesn't work, where we need to make investments. And the third way is what we're doing here today, and that is through engagement. And it's incredibly important that we are engaged all over the country, that we hear from stakeholders and people with expertise. When I was working in Ohio, I understood that I could not understand the criminal justice landscape while sitting in my office in Columbus. And certainly since I've come to BJA, I recognize I can understand what is going on all across this country, both the challenges and the successes. I think so often we focus so much on the challenges that we don't think about or talk enough about the good work that is being done all across the country. And so I want BJA to be engaged. I want us to get out of D.C., visit with our partners, listen to people, hear their stories, hear their struggles, hear all of it. And then it's our responsibility to take that information, synthesize it, analyze it, come back here and collectively develop solutions to address some of the challenges that people are facing across the country and to highlight some of the success that people are having. And your comments that healthy communities are safer communities just really hits home. In some of our discussion later, I'd love to dig into that a little bit more, but I can't help but think you're all created in 1984 and you talk about the conversation changing over that time. You know, the first city program was in 1988, and that was a paradigm shift. And there have been so many efforts since then to train law enforcement and to build community partnerships around so many of these issues. NAMI’s celebrating our 45th anniversary this year. And, you know, the partnerships that we have with agencies like BJA, they really have changed the conversation around mental illness and helped made our communities healthier. Let me really thank NAMI because it is that work, day-to-day, every day, and we're still not where we need to be, but we're certainly moving in the right direction. We started way back at A and trying to get people from A to B, and we've got some communities who are much, much further along in the alphabet. We've got some that we still need to pull along. But that work has been done, really. The leadership of NAMI and creating the humanity around people who are struggling with health issues. This is a health issue and it has always frustrated me so much. This is the only health issue that is criminalized. We don't go after people for cancer. We don't even go after people who have seizures while they're driving a car and something terrible happens. This is it. And so there's a lot further that we have to go. But we've come a long way. And NAMI has been really a leader in this space. So I'm very appreciative and happy anniversary to you all as well. Well, thank you for that. And we can't do what we do without partnerships with leaders like you. So it takes all of us. But talking about where we are and, you know, getting communities from A to Z, you know, I'd love to hear about some of the initiatives that BJA is working on because I think people would be shocked about the number of programs that you all touch and help lead and information you disseminate. So I'm wondering if you can tell our listeners a little bit about the work that BJA is doing and some of those initiatives that are going on right now. Yeah, I can touch on just a few because I'm not sure how much time we have. I will touch on some of the things that we are doing. Some of them have matured a great deal. I'll start with our Justice and Mental Health Collaboration program and that started way back in 2006. So we've been at this for nearly 20 years through this program. It's really about cross-system collaboration and trying to make sure that we have the type of engagement and type of collaboration that's necessary for a lot of people. That first engagement that they have with the justice system is law enforcement and being able to create the right types of collaborations that allow for people to get to where they need to be and recognition of of where people are and what they're actually dealing with is an important aspect of this. Now, despite the fact that that program has been around for a long time, we struggled a little bit trying to get to law enforcement. And really some of it I think was around maybe around the language, and language matters a great deal. And so we created underneath Jam ACP, the Connect and Protect Program. So Connect and Protect is specifically for law enforcement. And I've been able to see some great programs around the country, some great work that's been done. You know, we focused a lot on co-responder models and now there are not even co-respond, there's just a different response. And that has been amazing to see. We have a number of mental health learning sites across the country. And that's the thing I really want to capture in this conversation. I was just having a conversation right here in D.C. with the district, and they have sent people to other policing agencies who they think do a really good job. We do a lot of peer-to-peer work and we send people all across the country to better understand exactly what this looks like in real life. It's one thing for us to talk about it, and we do, you know, we talk about it, “God, that sounds good,” but maybe it's kind of the way I learn. But some of these things I want to I want to feel them, you know, I want to get a real understanding and then I want to talk to the people who are actually doing the work and hear what exactly it is like. You know, I was sitting in a meeting not that long ago, and Amy Solomon, the AAG over at the Office of Justice Programs, she was making this point, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And for a long time, we have equipped people only with hammers. We're equipping them with so much more, so much more. You know, prior to CIT and coming from Ohio, I'm sure you know, we're a big CIT state. We have-- Yes. So-- We love that! Yes! So, so many police officers in CIT. But coming from Ohio, I've been able to watch it throughout my career. The change in the approach. And I think sometimes it's unfair. You take people, you put them in a situation, you don't train them for, and all of a sudden they've got to make split second decisions about how to proceed. And so I think all of these things together have put us in a much better position to train people in order to make better decisions and provide better response. But there's a number of things. Like I said, we have the law enforcement mental health learning side. We have the police mental health collaborations. We've developed a lot of things. We are an innovation organization and so we're always trying to look around the corner for the next iteration of how we can take practice further. And so that's our responsibility. We'll continue to do that, but I'm happy with a lot of the work that we've been able to do so far. You know, it strikes me, innovation, I think that's really where it's at. And we're seeing so much innovation across the country and how we address people who historically would have come in contact with law enforcement and law enforcement only. Your comment about the peer-to-peer learning among law enforcement really resonates, I think, with a lot of people in the NAMI audience, because we always talk about hearing from peers, learning from peers, getting supported by peers because it's so much more impactful when you're talking to somebody who's walked in your shoes, who's been down the same road. And I think whether you're a person living with mental illness who has-- is talking to somebody else who's in recovery or you're in law enforcement, you can see that this really can happen. These innovations are possible and the impact is there and this is how you do it has such a big impact on giving people the support they need to really think differently. So I appreciate your focus on making those innovations happen. I agree with you so much. The importance of peer-to-peer learning, that it just comes with a different level of legitimacy. And I've had the opportunity to talk to people who have struggled with whether it's mental health challenges or substance use disorder or whatever the case may be, and the ability of them to be in a position to support people who-- they've gone through this experience, I think it resonates better with people. And the other thing is, and I don't want it to make it seem like peer-to-peer, it's only good for peer support because that's not the case at all, so as you know, allows people to develop programs that are more responsive to the very people they're trying to serve for too long. For way, way too long. The criminal justice system, the public health system, we have kept people out who we need to hear from, learn from, and understand what their experience is like. You know, every other industry in the world, they are so focused on what are our customers doing, what are our customers saying? What do the consumers of our services think about the services that we’re providing? And for way too long it's been like, no, no, no, we know. Well, we don't know. There's a lot we do know, but there's a lot that we need to learn. So I think it’s an important thing that has happened and we need to do more of it. You know, we appreciate that. We always try to make sure when solutions are being discussed on how to support people with mental illness, that people with mental illness are at the table. But it also takes the mental health system and takes, you know, policymakers who are going to be helping implement these changes. It takes a community. And so that approach is very much appreciated and I think has so much more benefit to all of our communities by making sure those important voices are all at the table. Absolutely. You know, right now we are seeing a lot of change and I would say rapid change in how our communities are looking at mental illness in the criminal justice system. I'm hoping you can speak a little bit about why you think that's happening now and really what the administration is focused on in terms of addressing some of the challenges we have with criminalization of mental illness as well as the mental health crisis in this country. There's so many reasons, I think, why we've seen things progress the way they have. You know, I started off talking about the work of NAMI. I think it's hard to work in this field and not have, at least at some point heard the name NAMI. I think there has been, as a society, just a growing recognition. We're not where we need to be. I would never say mission accomplished. But even in language that you see in movies and TV, it's so different. I mean, go back and watch the shows I watched growing up and listen to the way people were described, and now it's so different in so many instances. So there's been a lot of progress. I think the other thing, I think it's too bad that we have to go through this in order to be more empathetic. But so many people now. It used to be a “those people” problem. It doesn't impact me. It's somebody else who’s dealing with that. And it's so incredibly frustrating to me that for way too many of us, we have to be-- we have to be personally impacted by something to care. But the reality is, as our understanding has gotten better, people's understanding of their own family members, of friends, of loved ones has gotten so much better and we have become more empathetic. I would compare it in many ways to the meth and the opioid crisis. You know, our response to drug use used to be very, very different. And although people have lots of thoughts of why our response is different now, the fact that so many people have been impacted, whether it was through meth or whether it was through opioids, it has allowed them to see humanity in people and the health challenge that people are dealing with that they didn't see as a health problem before. And I think we're seeing the same thing on the mental health side. But I also think we have new leaders, we have new leadership, we have people who have grown up where there's always been a city officer. And now those people are taking over organizations large and small, and they have an understanding of this in a very different way. And the one thing I don't want to underestimate is the younger generation. They don't see stigma associated with having mental health challenges. They discuss them, they talk to their friends about that. They share it. I facilitated a discussion around it's kind of about work and mental health and things like that. And we split up the panelists. They represented different generations, right? I mean, you could see the steady difference and the importance of work life balance and mental health and the Gen Zer was very in touch with not only, do I want my mental health to be taken care of while I'm working, I want to make sure after the fact and they want to make sure that the people they were responsible for also had their mental health needs taken care of. So I think as we get further and further away from the stigmatization of mental health, and more and more people who have grown up with mental health being, just like cancer or just like diabetes or just like any other thing that people struggle with, I think we'll get closer and closer to the point where we will see the decriminalization of mental health and addressing it as the health crisis that it actually is. You know, what you said about younger generations, their perspectives and what they demand in terms of what society looks like is so different and so refreshing and is really taking us to a different place. And, you know, NAMI has what we call NAMI Next Gen, a group of young advisors. We have a new class each year, hundreds of applications for ten spots that we bring in to really help us think about what should we be doing different. How do we reach younger people, but also how do we change our mindset as we all adjust to changing perceptions, finally, that’ve been so important, you know. It warms my heart to hear you say that you think, you know, everyone in this space has at least heard of NAMI. You know, we bring people with real lived experience to the table and recently we launched “Overlooked.” It was a campaign that's focused on lifting up stories of real people with mental illness who have been involved in the criminal justice system. And it's been really powerful to hear so many stories of where people were, what happened to them, where they are today and to give people that voice in the process, you know. Just would love your thoughts, and what do you think these personal stories mean to some of the work of justice reform and how do they contribute to the change that we're seeing in the perceptions and the willingness to look at things differently? First, let me say I’m a stat person. Stats, to me, stats and data, we need to utilize those things to move policy. But I think what stories do and stories that are consistent with data, they give us a real-world opportunity to touch someone's brain with the data and the stories to touch someone's heart. It's really easy to forget a stat or some data point. It's hard to forget someone story. I'm sure there are stories that you heard 14, 15 years ago that you could probably still share right now because they impacted you so much. There might have been a stat shared in that, but it didn't have the same impact. So, you know, I as a person who thinks we need to utilize data more, I don't ever want it to become a policy by anecdote. And I think that happens too often. And sometimes we end up with some pretty bad laws because we don't look at the story that the data is telling as well. I love when I have an opportunity to give a speech to talk about the data and then pivot to a story that lays out why this is so important, why this policy matters, why this practice matters, why this person matters, and how this person is not a data point. I think that's the other thing. You can look at stats and I think you can become incredibly desensitized from what that stat means. But when you're looking at it and then you hear a story of someone's life and their challenges, how it impacted them, how it stunted their ability to live the life that they dreamed of living. And then very often, if you can hear that story of,“but then they finally got the support that they deserved all along” and they were able to transform what seem like a person who would never meet their God-given potential and to a person who is living that life. And then you think about how that has resonated. That is one person. But that data lays out, these are thousands and thousands of people. So I do I always like to be able to utilize some type of story to get to people. And sometimes it's the story that lets people know this is important. It's life changing and it's transformational. And when you talk about the criminalization of certain activities, that transformation can go the other way, because now we all know the stats and we all know the data. The moment a person spends time in jail, spends time in prison, how that increases the likelihood that their kids are going to spend time or that they're going to have, continue to have those same types of engagement. So I think the stories are incredibly important. Yeah, well, thank you for that. You know, we always say facts inform and stories move. And they're also critical to the conversation and has been a real honor to work with so many advocates and making their story matter and have an impact. You know because we--the data is telling us what we need to do or where we can have an impact. But those stories do really imprint on people's hearts and help move that progress forward. So switching gears a little bit here, you know, one of the things that NAMI has been really involved in is the implementation of 988 and expansion of mental health crisis services. You know, we think this has the potential to be a game changer in how communities look at the crisis continuum of care. And it's creating a lot more opportunities for diversion and shifting some of the responsibilities that we have traditionally seen resting on law enforcement shoulders to other partners in the community. I would love to hear more about what BJA is doing in this space. I know you referenced work on co-responder models earlier, but how do you think that this can help communities really reduce incarceration and criminal justice system involvement? Right. So we've done some work on 988. We held a convening here at the Office of Justice Programs on 988 and some of the connections I made during that convening, I continue to engage with those folks and to hear their thoughts on where we are and where we need to be. And I'll give it somewhat of a personal spin, although I don't want to make anything about me. But, you know, one of the things that I have experienced in my life is having someone very close to me who struggles with mental health challenges. And it seemed like when I was traveling, I would get a call from her. I could hear in her voice that whatever it was, wherever she was, the last time we had talked, that she was breaking down and breaking down quickly. And I remember just feeling incredibly helpless, like, what if something happens, you know, and I'm not there? What if someone calls the police on her and I'm not there? So I would say 988, even for me personally, has given me a certain peace of mind. Probably anyone who listens to this podcast knows that, you have a family member, you have a friend, you have a mentor, a coworker, a teacher, a someone in your life, and you may not even know that they are, but they are dealing with this. And I think it goes to the advances that have been made that you don't know very often. You don't know. But what would you want in those moments? And I think 988 should give us a lot of peace of mind. I think it does a couple of things. One, it takes a lot of load off of police officers. And as we are dealing with the recruiting and retention challenge to be able to take anything to reduce some of the things that we put on law enforcement. But I think the most important thing it does is that it allows us to make sure the people with the entire full toolbox get to show up on the scene and get better outcomes. And I know there's always concerns about safety and things like that. You know, that's part of the thought behind the co-responder model. But from the things that I've been able to look at and read, the outcomes seem to be much better. The ability to de-escalate seems to be much, much better. And I think it just really has a chance to make sure that we get the right people dealing with whatever this challenge, whichever way it manifests itself. Yeah. So I mean, so well said. And you know, for a lot of people still learning about 988, I mean, one, it reduces the need for an in-person response because so many crises can be addressed over the phone and people connected to supportive services in their community. But also around 988, there has been so much effort to provide someone to respond, whether that's co-responder models or mobile crisis response. Communities are looking at this really differently. And 988 kind of opened the door to allow for more of those conversations. I do wonder, as you've been talking with law enforcement across the country, you know, what you hear from them about these changes and how you talk to them about why this is important and how it benefits our communities. You know, it's so interesting, Really busy people, right? They are busy, but they don't want to give anything up. And I think it-- and I've found that here at BJA. So true. So true. Our folks are really, really busy. And when I got here I was like, yeah, we've got to reduce the workload and then people don't want to give things up. But I will say part of that is, I've had a chance to talk to some city officers. This is like their bread and butter. This is for some of them, this is when, you know, like you go away to college and you're trying to make friends and then you find your people and then it's like, okay, I belong for some of them. Like this was their lane. This is what, you know, they found CIT and they’re like, man, this is what I love about policing, being able to help. So there is some of that. But I think for the most part, especially from executives, there is a combination of things. One is concern about, okay, is this really going to be taken off our plate or is it not? Because and I think that's still up for discussion, but I think for-- at the same time, a lot of them are like this has been much needed and it's been needed for a long time. And I would want to say just one thing as we're talking about mental health and talking about co-responders. You know, one of the things that we found in co-response, you know, one of the biggest beneficiaries is of having a mental health clinician sitting right next to them. It's the police officers. Wow. Finally have someone who they can talk to about the challenges. And, you know, there's been a big push in health and wellness. Yes. Policing and other first responders. But that person sitting right there being able to talk to them and, you know, almost like get some support while they're doing this job has been incredibly beneficial to police officers as well. Wow. That's such a great point that I hadn't even thought about, but I can imagine it makes a big difference in their lives. You know, they carry a heavy burden. And we know the mental health of law enforcement is a huge concern in this country. So that's something that's really interesting for us to think about as these programs are implemented. And Director Moore, I just want to say you give me a lot of hope and all of the individuals with mental health conditions and their families and their loved ones who are listening. Leadership like yours and leadership that we're seeing from so many in the law enforcement community and the justice system to really change this conversation and help people with mental health conditions get the help that they need is changing lives. So I just want to say thank you to you for your leadership. And as we wrap up, we have a special section. We dedicate the last couple of minutes of our podcasts to the Hold on to Hope. And so you've dedicated your career to public service, specifically around improving the criminal justice system so it better improves or better serves our communities and improves our communities. I'm sure that comes with frustrations and challenges, and we'd love to hear what helps you hold on to hope and the role that you serve. Gosh. Well, certainly conversations like today play a big part in that. You know, I think engaging with people, hearing someone's story, we had a close up conference and that's one of our grant programs. We had a speaker, you know, she had had all kinds of run ins with the criminal justice system. I mean, I don't even know the number of times she was arrested. It was some incredible number, right? And she got her life together. I think she went through a drug court, got her life together or whatever. And she said, I'm finally the person I dreamed about being when I was just a little girl. I was like, you hear something like that? And you're like, how can you not be hopeful? But I will say this. Not only does it make you hopeful, but I think people who do this work, they need to hear that. They need to hear that so they get re-energized. So they get their batteries charged, so they understand making a difference is not some theoretical academic thing that people just talk about. It actually happens in communities. Person by person. People need to understand that I have watched people's lives change and I've seen people transform, and I know what that does for their family. And I know that they can do so much work. And they've served as an example to the community and to younger people to help them try to turn their lives around. So it's difficult for me to look at where we were and where we are. We're not where we need to be. We're not anywhere close to where we need to be, but we are so much better off than we were. Even in the time that I've been in my criminal justice career, we're so much better off. So I am hopeful from hearing people's stories, from working with people, from people who are so dedicated and care so much. You know, government is about problem solving. That's what it's about. It is about solving problems. And there are lots and lots of people in communities all across the country who get up every day, and their thought is, how do I solve a problem? How do I fix this? How do I make things better? So it's difficult for me to be exposed to all of that and then be down or depressed because there are lots and lots of examples of why we should be hopeful. Again, kind of pointing out the younger generation and the way they see so many issues in a very different light. I have a daughter who's at the University of Cincinnati and she's graduating this year. She's in the Criminal Justice Department. Congrats! Thank you. And in three years, too. So I think she got her mom’s-- Oh my goodness. But I get hopeful every time I talk to her about some type of criminal justice issue, because I can feel the depth of how much she cares. And we just need more people like that. Well, Director Moore, I cannot think of a better way to end this conversation. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your dedication to our communities and helping us all, as you said earlier, have healthier communities. And healthier communities are safer communities. So I appreciate your time and NAMI appreciates our collaboration with you and your wonderful staff at BJA. Well thank you so much, Hannah. It's been a real pleasure. This has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you're looking for mental health resources, you're not alone. To connect with the NAMI helpline and find local resources, visit nami.org/help. Text helpline to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI (6264). To learn more about the work of Department of Justice and the Bureau of Justice Assistance, please visit bja.ojp.gov. And if you or a loved one are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org. To learn how NAMI's engaged and expanding crisis response in conjunction with 988 visit reimaginecrisis.org. Thank you for listening and be well.