Turning to Art and Community for Mental Health Support – Episode 44

As Mental Health Awareness Month begins, NAMI is talking about ways to take the moment for our mental health. Guest host Alessandra Torresani is joined by artist Alex Alpert to explore how art can act as a coping strategy when faced with mental health challenges. The pair also discusses how communication and community can be keys to navigating life, especially when diagnosed with mental health conditions. 

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

Transcript

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It's really important just to like not be hyper focused on whatever the result is of what you're creating or doing or anything. You just kind of do it. And a lot of times, I mean, go figure, like when I start doing my art that way, that's when people really liked it and responded to it because I think they recognized that I enjoyed it and I was you know, proud of it. Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I am your guest host, NAMI Ambassador Alessandra Torresani. We started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. Hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for help, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective and we hope that each episode with each conversation brings you into that collective to know you are not alone. Today we are here with the fabulous Alex Alpert. I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you. You are a new ambassador to the NAMI Collective, and as an older ambassador, I feel like this is a really great match because I get to learn so much about you and hear your story and hear why mental health is so important to you. So first and foremost, Alex, something that I always ask everyone is, How are you really? That's great. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Very excited. I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good. Have some fun, exciting stuff happening professionally and I'm trying to balance it kind of with how I am mentally and doing an okay job lately. It's always kind of ups and downs as a creative and as an artist. So kind of like riding those and managing that, but overall feeling pretty good. I'm just excited and happy to be a part of this and speaking with you. Oh, I'm so excited. I feel like I did a little research of myself on you that sounded like really like stalkerish, but no, it wasn’t. I was so curious and I discovered your art. And your art is so fabulous and so amazing. So can you tell me a little bit about that first? Sure. Yeah. So I've been making art my whole life, and it's actually always kind of been tied to mental health. It was kind of a way for me to express myself when I was younger. My kind of specialty is this kind of freestyled, improvizational drawing that's, I don't really plan it too much and it's really kind of just from my subconscious. As a result, it's really kind of whatever I'm feeling at the time or, you know, things that I have on my mind. So I've been doing that since I was a kid. It was doodling when I was in class, when I was younger. Did you ever get in trouble for doodling? Like I remember there were so many kids. I am not artistic by any means. Like when it comes to with my, you know, hands, like doing art. And I'm telling you that there are kids next to me that were so skilled, but they would get in so much trouble and I'm like, just let them! No they didn’t like it. No, it's true. They didn't like it. My teachers used to scold me for it, and I like to joke now. I've been like going back to these schools and, like, speaking to the art students and stuff like that, and they'll be like, You turned out okay. So yeah, Art was an outlet for me then. And kind of as time went on, I worked in a few different industries and learned more about kind of like business and marketing and very kind of slowly turned it into a full time thing. Started with my artwork on shoes. That was like a big part of my business for a while. I worked in the music industry, so I would make like custom shoes for a lot of the artists I was working with. And then I would start doing murals and things like that around the city and kind of got into the street art scene, which was a cool way of getting my stuff out there more. And all this same kind of like illustration, kind of like line art style, which just makes it easy for me to kind of just do it off the cuff and yeah, just kind of grew and I was lucky to be able to start working with a lot of brands and companies who have kind of collaborated with me on different projects and uh... Did it kind of come all out of like all at once where it was very overwhelming, where you're like, Oh, whoa, I went from doodling in math class to now I'm like doodling on McLarens’ and like, on billboards and like, famous people’s shoes? Like, was it kind of a really big jump for you or was it gradual enough where you were able to be like, okay, this is just what it is? I wouldn't say wasn't overwhelming because it still is often, but it was very gradual for me. I kind of like very almost kind of methodically, like was able to start charging more and like reaching out to more companies and take on more of a workload. So I'm thankful that it was kind of gradual, which I think made me able to deal with it more. Not that being a full time artist doesn't still come with tons of anxieties and insecurities and stuff like that. I'm sure, because the thing with art, right, is like with any artist in any field, and I speak like as an actress, right? Like I'm going to say from my point of view, it's you, right? It's your baby. It's like you're giving yourself up and I feel like you're giving a little piece of yourself to someone every time. And I can only imagine how much more intense it is as an artist, because it's like these are literally your visions coming to life. Yeah, there's definitely something to that. You have to be vulnerable. I think it is very similar to acting or performing in a lot of ways, and I also like to kind of think of it like similar to lots of other businesses too. It's the same struggles of being an entrepreneur, starting your own company, things like that. It's really all on you. Comes down to your ability to handle this project and that project. It’s a lot of like power in being in that position though. It's, it's cool. There's a lot of power that you hold like a lot, which can be overwhelming. It can be - a lot of people say you get imposter syndrome from that because all of a sudden it's like your things that you were, you know, just designing for funsies are now like, actually, they have a worth, they have a value of money on it. And that puts a lot of pressure and it's like, how can you decide like, what something is worth? It's a lot. So what was kind of the moment for you where you were like, Oh, I've made it? I think when I started to book like my first really big brand partnerships, I kind of leaned into this like commercial side of art more than the fine art, because I really like it. Like I enjoy kind of collaborating with companies and telling like, a companies story. and I'm not really one of those artists who's like, my work needs to look a certain way. I do a lot of like collaborative art stuff too. I'm excited to work through something like that at the NAMICon. Oh, cool. Kind of like a mural where I'm doing art, but I'm inviting other people to come and add to it. And I think that kind of describes my feelings towards it. It like doesn't need to be totally my vision. It can be like this collaborative thing where everybody feels like part of it. Wow, that's awesome. And that's kind of lent itself to like company work too, because obviously you have a lot of opinions and people who want input and I'm open to that. So I got a partnership deal with Nike and Red Bull and some of these companies that it was a different kind of contract where I was like, okay, this is something I can support myself on and you know, make my full time gig. And I've been lucky to have a good amount of those and a few down the pipeline that make me feel secure enough to be like, okay, this is growing. What about your family? Did they ever feel like, Oh my God, like, how can you support yourself as an artist? He’s quitting his job to be full time. Yeah, it was a thing. I mean, I'm lucky my parents are both very creative. My mom was an opera singer. Wow. Yeah. And singing teacher. So I, like, grew up with her giving singing lessons in my house. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you hadn't heard a lot of bad singers, too? Yeah, a lot of singers. Yeah. I heard all sorts. All sorts. But my mom made them better. Yeah. And my dad is a journalist writer, so, you know, definitely supportive of the arts. And going back to how I was as a student, I wasn't the best student academically. I just, it never was very important to me. But I had these creative skills that I think my parents realized that's more his scene and we should support him in developing those talents because clearly math isn’t as much his thing. But I think that that's so wonderful and I think that it's, I hear so many stories of supportive parents but then I hear so many stories of people who are unsupportive of children, whatever their goal is, of whatever they want to do, whatever their passion is. And I think that that's so hard when you don't have a support system around you. I'm a really firm believer in community and like if you have parents that are supportive, great. But you know, if you don't, then find you know, friends, find, you know, even strangers that you can bond with like other artists, that can be there for you because truly community is so important, that bond is so important for us to grow as humans physically and mentally and be the best versions of ourselves that we possibly can be. So hearing that you already have that support is such a blessing and it's so fantastic. That's so wonderful. Yeah, you're 100% right. I'm very lucky that way. But to your point, I've met artists from all backgrounds and all levels of support, and I also kind of make it a priority, like I do a lot of educational stuff. I work with the New York Children's Museum and these different educational institutions because a lot of public schools and stuff are losing their art programs. So there's like less and less support and people who want to pursue these things. So I think it's really important that I kind of put myself out there and be like, you can pursue art and make money and like be relatively successful. And I think that's a lot of parents who haven't been exposed to that or don't know that. Of course, they'll be a little scared if their kid wants to pursue this thing they don't really know about. So I think it's, I'm trying to show that there's so many different ways to...There's so many different ways and I think that's so awesome that you're working with the New York Children's Museum because the arts is going away and it's so scary how fast it's going away and people are not paying attention and it just feels like this lost thing that's going to be gone in a few generations. And it's like, no, like this is what helps people. I mean, when you think of all the artists in the world, like now just kind of transitioning into like mental health, like you think of all these famous world renowned artists that all lived with mental illnesses that lived, and this was their way of expressing themselves. And it's like, how would they have been able to express themselves if they didn't have their art, you know, you just wonder of these things. So it's so wonderful that you're doing so much work. Now, how did you get involved with NAMI? How did you first hear of NAMI and what was your first reaction to it? Were you like, Oh my God, Like, where have you been all my life? Like, that's how I was. Yeah. I mean, so mental health has always been big in my life. There's a lot of mental health issues in my families, a lot of depression, anxiety, things like that. And I've been diagnosed depressed since I was like ten, you know, in and out of therapy. So always a very, oh also lucky my parents are pretty conscious and open about that stuff. And so I didn't feel like it was such a stigma growing up in the same way I have with the art. I've tried to be open about it and try to set an example of like, you can function just fine and this stuff. And so I've always kind of had mental health on my radar, just obviously in my life, but also just in the world around me. And I first heard about NAMI, I was doing one of those collaborative art projects back in 2020, I believe 2020, 2021, and brought together a bunch of artists who we all added to like one big canvas and the theme around what we added was like mental health related, whatever that meant to the artist. Yeah, it was fun and it came out into this really cool group piece that looked awesome. We were able to auction it off and raise a good amount of money and we donated the proceeds to NAMI. Oh cool! And that was, it was funny, I, I just hadn’t known about NAMI for a long time prior to that, but I quickly did a lot of research and really liked what they were doing. So it seemed like the right fit. And then once that project was over, I just kind of stayed in touch and went to an event here in New York when they released their book and met a lot of great people. So I stayed in touch with the team and they've been awesome. And it's interesting as my art has kind of progressed too, and I've made mental health like a very strong part of it. I think there's like more opportunities than ever to like, bring in the companies that I'm working with or the other artists that I work with. This touches everybody, mental health in some way so. And I feel like with art, I think that's such an amazing way for you to not only express yourself with your own mental health and your own struggles and your own stuff, but there's such an ease with art where you can have these intense, you know, subjects right, and these conversations, but you don't have to talk, you know? And I think that that's what's so nice and I think how special it's going to be at NAMICon, to have this big art piece and everyone's coming in painting and giving a little bit of themselves because that's what community is kind of all about. Did you ever get you know, nervous when you were younger? Like, I'm, I guess I'm always so curious because I live with bipolar one disorder and I was not properly diagnosed until I was 21, 22, and I'm going to be 37 now. So that was like a long time now that I've been living with this. But still it's so fresh and so new to me. When you were younger and you were diagnosed with depression when you were ten, was that a kind of a scary thought? I just I kind of want to touch to parents and also to maybe kids who are a little bit younger, who are listening that are maybe scared of the unknown. Like, what was that kind of experience for you being so young and experiencing mental health like that? My parents were very supportive and very educated about, especially for their generation. They'd both been in therapy pretty much their whole lives. I was grateful that it didn't feel like a big deal, you know, when I was going to see a therapist at a young age. The scary part was just how I felt. I just remember being young and just, you know, just extremely negative for how old I was. It's interesting. I think like that was probably like some of my lowest points was when I was a really young kid and I've done a lot of work to kind of, I'm much more functional than I was when I was a kid. But it's it's kind of interesting. I feel like it happens later in life for a lot of people, but for me, it was a lot when I was young. It was hard. I mean, and it's weird looking back to like thinking about how it might have affected my development in certain ways and maybe steering me towards creative things because it was a way of coping when I was younger. But it also taught me a lot. I was in therapy and getting help, but I also, even like subconsciously, did a lot of work on how to deal with fears that was happening. And I think it's really made me pretty good at dealing with that stuff. It was it was hard and it is it's scary. I mean, especially like when you get to the psychiatrist and then you're getting treatment and things like that, like it's all- Well being in a doctor is like scary enough for a kid. So I feel like even if you are used to going to a therapist and stuff it’s scary experience. Even though I wasn't diagnosed until I was 21, there were signs like I went to a hypnotherapist at five years old because they were trying everything they could because I had so many different issues that kept like coming up and they didn't understand what it was. And I had talked to a therapist and I don't know if it was like a generational thing. I think you're younger than me by a lot, but I'm not, but I don't know. But, you know, I think that people just didn't know how to diagnose bipolar disorder at that time, and I was diagnosed depressed when I was 15. And they put me on antidepressants, which made my highs higher, my lows lower, and it was worse for me. So I feel like that's the other struggle when you deal with mental illness is you're misdiagnosed so many different times and that's part of the battle, too. And that's why it's so important that you have a community around you or you have at least one person that you can talk to, that you can be completely open and honest with because it's scary, you know, and you feel almost like your this mouse that's getting tested on as a science experiment over and over when people are just trying to help, you know? But that can be really scary as a child. Since you work with so many children now, do you ever share your story about how you know you were living with depression when you were very young, or have you ever had kids that have approached you that have been like, Hey, I'm feeling this way, you know, since you're in kind of that world right now? Totally. Yeah. I try to be open about it. I don't try not to like- You don't want to, like, trauma it out, you know? Be like, blah! You know, right. Exactly. Yeah, but it's interesting. I find that there's a strong amount of overlap between kids who might be struggling with things like that, and kids who are really getting into art because, I think it is a common coping skill, a common way for, like kids to express themselves when they can't necessarily do it verbally. So I find myself like in those kinds of conversations and stuff, just by virtue of being surrounded by artists, and not just kids, people my age and older as well. So yeah, I try to be very open about it. I think we are relatively lucky because people are really starting to address it and be more open about it. When we were younger and now at this point I feel like people are really a lot more open about it, which makes me really hopeful that it's only going to get more that way. Obviously people have diagnoses and illnesses and things like that, but I'm also of the belief that everybody's got some stuff going on. Everyone's got some stuff, and even if it's not, a full mental health like break down, you know, we just are dealing with stress and anxiety from the world around us, from the amount of, you know, screens that we have in front of our face. I have a now almost two year old and I'm so conscious and I'm so overly aware of not even just like screen time, but just like the effects of like when she's around certain things and certain energies. I'm not trying to like, put it on her, you know what I mean? But I know that bipolar disorder is something that is genetic. So it's something that I'm like watching for. But, you know, my mom even says it like she's like, I'm so lucky that we were able to go through the things and the steps that we went through with you, because if this were something to arise in Lady, that's my daughter's name. If something were to arise in her, we would be able to find a solution so fast and be able to help her where it would not be this 22 year long struggle of trying to figure out what the issue is. So I think that like unfortunately, there's so many people who are living with these chronic illnesses, but at least we have now resources and more doctors and more specialists out there that can help out and different types of modalities. And speaking of that, like what is something that you do for your mental health other than the obvious? I feel like art, which is completely, you know, your your main thing, is there something that you do that maybe someone could take your advice on and maybe take a little piece of that? Sure. I really love walking, just like getting outside and walking. What a great place to be in New York, hours of entertainment. No, yeah that is perfect for that. And I'll turn it into something of like an awareness situation, because what I do is kind of like ruminate on an anxiety or something and just get really in my head. That's kind of how it manifests. So it's kind of important for me to like, get outside, walk around, make myself get out of my head and like, pay attention to what's around me. It's funny, New York is perfect for that, but at the same time, it can be difficult because there's so much everywhere that like it's a lot of noise and just people, and everything. So I think the bodies defense mechanisms it'll kind of like close it all off. I have to kind of like fight that and like really pay attention to certain things. So that kind of like awareness and like trying to just put myself into the present is really important for me. I think having, you mentioned this earlier, just like people who kind of get you and support you is super important. So I have a really great girlfriend and family members and some close friends who are super supportive and I can reach out to and communicate with when I'm not feeling great. Those things are really important. Obviously, the arts, the art too, is like, I don't think you need to be a professional artist to get some benefit. You could go to color me mine and just paint. a ceramic duck and you know, call it a day and you will feel so much better. Yeah it's true. Yeah. And if I'm also one of those people is like, I think everybody's an artist. People get in their heads about like how their hand moves or whatever, but there are ways to like, once you really trust yourself and just like don't really care about the result, it can be super beneficial. Just like making something that can be a duck, it could be a doodle on a paper. When I was a kid, I used to make more like realism. I would do like portraits and landscapes and things like that, and it didn't make me happy. I would get really caught up in it, needing to look a certain way and being a perfectionist and then when I went back to this kind of like early style of just like freestyle drawing, like don't really care about the result, you can't make a mistake and it's just fun. And I think that's a really good parallel to like a lot of things. Like sometimes it's really important just to like not be hyper focused on whatever the result is of what you're creating or doing or anything. You just kind of do it. And a lot of times, I mean, go figure, like when I start doing my art that way, that's when people really liked it and responded to it, because I think they recognized that I enjoyed it and I was proud of it. You were passionate about it and it was just coming from your heart and your soul. Exactly, I mean and you, and if you feel good about it. I think people respond to that and I think that applies to a lot of things, not just art, you know, it applies to your everyday work and business. It can apply to what you're cooking, you can apply to your relationship, to whatever. It could apply to love. And speaking of love, like, this is a question that I get asked a lot when I go on mental health podcasts because I talk about it a lot on my own podcast. But when I first was diagnosed, I had shared with people that I was living with bipolar one disorder, and then I started realizing that a lot of guys that I was date were dating, were holding it against me. They'd be like, Oh, you're crazy and it's because of this, and it's like, no, that's not why, but okay, you know, certain things. So I was really scared to open up and to talk about it. And then I was single for a little bit for a year and a half, and I thought to myself, the next person that I date, I'm going to be open and to be honest right off the bat, because I don't want to hide this anymore. And when I met my husband, the second sentence I ever said to him was, by the way I live with bipolar disorder. So you either deal with it or you don't. And he was like, okay, fine. And what? You know, like it was not a big deal to him. And it's something that we've had to obviously work on together because of, you know, me having a baby and living with all this. What is a story of like how you dealt with your mental illness and your mental health and sharing that in relationships? How do you ever get to a place where you're finally comfortable, you know, or is it the right person? Kind of what is your experience with dating and with love and mental health? I also choose to normally be really open. I think it's important anybody that you don't want to end up spending your life with should be able to understand you and kind of work with you through those things. What I found personally is my history of treatment and speaking through my problems and being made to be vulnerable, which you have to be when you're in therapy or with, you know, just kind of working your way through these mental illnesses. In some ways, it's kind of like a relationship superpower because it makes you very empathetic, it makes you very self-aware. It makes you very understanding of your partner, which I think is really important. I’ve found like communication is like the most important thing when it comes to a relationship, because you're going to have issues you need to work with and ups and downs and your ability to work through them and support one another is key to make it work. So yeah, I mean, definitely when I was younger I was a little more nervous to kind of be open. But as time has gone on and I've also kind of gotten a better grasp on it and been more open and stuff like that, I think it's become like something I'm kind of like proud of in a weird way. I love that. Because I can be like, Yeah, like I have these, these things that could be holding me back, but I'm dealing with them and I think it like makes me a more sensitive and communicative person. So yeah, I guess I try to own it and I'm not saying there aren't still struggles frequently with everything and with my mood and whatever, but yeah, you definitely need to communicate that it's something about you because otherwise it won't really know where it's coming from. 100% communication is the key to everything honestly, communication and community, those are the to the two c’s. I like that. Well, Alex, I have two more questions for you. One question is what is the future look like for you? Oh man, I want to keep growing the art. I have some really cool and exciting projects coming out soon, which I'm excited for people to see, but it's going to be more internationally visible, which I'm excited about, just kind of getting exposure. So that's, I think gonna really help kind of accelerate and help keep putting my stuff out there. I want to keep getting my art in different places like I've been loving doing murals. I want to keep doing those like public art stuff. I've been loving the brand and fashion collaborations, so I'm going to keep doing those. I’m in the works of like creating my own line of stuff with art work on it. So in terms of like my art and my business, I think there's a lot of cool, exciting stuff. But I'm also really excited about how I can hopefully use that to help things like NAMI, the Children's Museum, like the philanthropy and educational part of what I do is kind of like what makes me the happiest. I definitely get a lot of satisfaction. Obviously,out of like a good deal or cool projects, but in the back of my head I'm also like, How can I use this to hopefully help people? Either get into art who are struggling with something that I've struggled with. So I'm excited to keep pushing projects ahead that benefit NAMI or other causes. Well, and the best thing about your art is that what what at least is speaking as someone who's not an artist, who loves artists and loves art is you get exposure all over the world and like now with social media, things can just like go completely viral and you could see a piece, you know, one of your murals out on display or something, and someone all the way in Japan could see it and they fall in love with it. And so I think that that's what's so cool about art is it's worldwide. You don't need to speak a language. It's just beauty. You know what I mean? And it speaks to you however you see that piece. So I think that that's what's really special, people of all ages are going to be able to understand it. And so what a way to be able to grow and meet more people like throughout the years. I think that that's just so cool. Thanks. Yeah, I hope so. I'm just going to keep it, keep it going and yeah, see, how it grows, but it's fun. I’m having fun doing it too. I'm glad you having fun. My final question is a question that I ask on my podcast, so I thought I would ask on this one is, What is your emotional support? I mean, the obvious answer is like my art and creative expression, even when I'm not drawing, I used to play a lot of music. So now that my visual arts is kind of my job, I found like playing guitar is now more of a emotional outlet for me. So that's a really good way of doing that. And then, yeah, it's like being with people who understand me and care about me really supports me emotionally. My family. You're like, I got a whole bag of emotional support that I need at all times. You need it. And you know, in certain times you'll feel some type of way and you need this kind of support. And then other times you feel a different kind of way and need a different way and it's good to have a versatile set of things to kind of be able to help you. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. 100%. Well, thank you so much, Alex. Yeah, and thank you.