Braver Through Hope With NAMI HelpLine Volunteers Featuring Megan Rochford, Madison Rubert, and Dave Tippett

At NAMI, we work to ensure that anyone experiencing mental health conditions knows that they are not alone. The staff and volunteers on our NAMI HelpLine and Teen & Young Adult HelpLine work on the frontline, responding to phone calls, texts, and chats from people seeking help. Today, host and NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. is joined by two NAMI HelpLine volunteers, Madison Rubert and Dave Tippett, along with NAMI HelpLine Operations Director Megan Rochford. In this conversation, we celebrate the hard work of our volunteers, discuss the recent accreditation from the International Council for HelpLines, and close out National Volunteers Month with gratitude for the care NAMI volunteers exhibit every day. 

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.

Episode production is provided by NAMI staff, including Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.

Transcript

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I learned through the peer support training that there really isn't a one size fits all for providing support, that it's really important to listen first. Sometimes people need like information and referrals, and other times they're really just looking to know that there's someone on the other end that provides that emotional empathy and that care. Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. My name is Dan Gillison, CEO of NAMI, and I'm your host. NAMI started this podcast for five reasons. We believe that hope starts with all of us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. And finally, hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If your loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode, with each conversation brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone. So our theme here is National Volunteer Month, and we want to highlight the work of the heartbeat of NAMI, our national HelpLine, and the work of our HelpLine staff and volunteers. So we really hope you'll pay close attention to this podcast. You're going to hear some wonderful information from some incredible people that are giving of themselves. So volunteers are the beating heart of the NAMI HelpLine and the Teen and Young Adult HelpLine. Yes, you did hear that. We do have a Teen and Young Adult HelpLine.

So I want to introduce our guests: 1:48

Megan Rochford, Madison Rubert, and Dave Tippett. Thank you for joining us. So glad to have you with us today. So Madison and Dave, let's get into it. And this is going to be a conversation. So if there's any place that you want to jump in or if there's a question I haven't asked, but an answer you have for something you think I should have asked? Just jump in. So let me start, though, with this. Madison and Dave, I want to really start first of all by thanking you. This is work you're doing out of choice, not circumstance. And we recognize that so sincerely from NAMI to you, we want to say thank you. Also, thank you for being with us today. Your dedication and hard work to the HelpLine and to the people that are calling. We really do appreciate it. Can you both share--would you both share how you learned about the NAMI HelpLine? And Madison, we'll start with you. Absolutely, Dan. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak about such an incredibly positive experience in my life. So my journey to becoming a NAMI HelpLine volunteer actually started on the other side of the line as a help seeker nearly ten years ago. I was experiencing my first major depressive episode during my freshman year of college. A year of great transition for me. And, you know, even at the time, I remember I was so debilitated that I couldn't even make the call myself. My mom had to make it for me. And I had no idea that, you know, that one phone call would really change the trajectory of my life and inspire like a life of giving and a life of volunteering. But that conversation really just marked the start of my mental health journey. Knowing that I had a safe haven, like a place to turn to, really gave me the confidence to move forward in my life with confidence. And then years later, once I had kind of achieved my goals. I had, moved to New York City, which was a lifelong dream, I work at Food Bank for New York City, which is a nonprofit that helps feed people in need. I felt like it's a great opportunity to give back to the HelpLine and the lifeline for so many in our country that really helped get me to where I wanted to be. So that's when I reached out in the summer, I think, of 2023 during my move to New York City. And I couldn't be more grateful that I did. You know what, Madison? Thank you for sharing that. And, I also want to say thank you to your mom. You know, NAMI was started by moms in 1979, and moms are incredible advocates. And as you mentioned, your freshman year and your mom making the call, you know, I hope your mom listens to this. Thank you, Mom. Thank you, Mom. We really appreciate it. And from your undergraduate days to your days now in New York, you know, kudos to you. And thank you. Dave, tell us your story. How did you first learn about NAMI and the HelpLine? Yeah. So during my journey, I saw it advertised, I believe, through email or something like that. And I kind of put it in the back of my mind because I was still working at the time, but, I thought, maybe someday that might be something that I might want to try. I have a family member with a mental health condition, and so that's our lived experience. And I've been blessed, when I was working, to have a job that I felt really made a difference, had a lot of purpose. And I thought when I retired, I wanted to have that same kind of job, I want the same kind of experience. And the HelpLine really aligned with that. Just being able to take my lived experience, plus my passion for making a difference and seeing, seeing lives changed. It was perfect. It was a perfect fit. And, again, the HelpLine helps me achieve those life goals going forward. And the fact that even simple things and being able to do it from home and having the kind of support that the HelpLine offers, as far as a coach and the HelpLine captains, it's all wonderful. So that's my story. You know I appreciate it Dave. And reading your bio and looking at your body of work. You know, we say something at NAMI, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And it looking at your career, you've always been in positions of demonstrating your care and you're continuing that in retirement. So we say again, thank you. And we really appreciate it. And that that is from the heart of NAMI. So thank you. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to turn to Megan. Megan, in February of this year, we remember it well because this was no small feat, NAMI announced that the International Council for HelpLines awarded their accreditation to NAMI HelpLines. We are absolutely thrilled to have their recognition of the excellence among our HelpLine staff and volunteers. That vetting process was incredible. I know as one of the people that was interviewed a couple of times, the intent and the process for this was incredible. This accreditation does highlight the team's dedication to providing exceptional support, information and resources to help seekers. Can you tell us more about the process? Because our audience would have no way of knowing the depths and the width of what this took? Of course, I'd be happy to. So, yes, as you mentioned, at the beginning of this year, NAMI HelpLine received accreditation from the International Council for HelpLines. That's an accrediting body that's been accrediting HelpLine organizations and establishing HelpLine best practice standards for well over 50 years. And there are so many benefits to being accredited. Accreditation makes a really strong statement to the mental health community about NAMI's commitment to helping service excellence, and it strengthens the community's confidence in the quality and the safety of NAMI HelpLine. It also ensures that HelpLine's always focusing on state of the art performance improvement strategies, right? And it elevates our reputation and our credibility among all of our stakeholders. So accreditation, all the status and the process, right? Perhaps, a much bigger process than any of us realized when we started, but so worthwhile, so worth doing. So it began for us with just a really honest look at what our strengths were as a helpline and where we might perhaps enhance things or improve things so that we could meet those 66 plus accreditation standards across nine different areas. And those ranged from things like, governance to leadership to fiscal management to safety. And it involved a process where we really engaged all of our stakeholders, everybody from the larger NAMI organization to our board and our funders and all of the HelpLine staff and volunteers in the process. We analyzed their findings, and then we made an action plan. How are we going to, get to a place of excellence? And how are we going to demonstrate that we got there, right? So we ended up, researching and creating over 345 supporting documents and uploading all of those for our application, which was successful. So for me, it feels kind of like building a house, right? Like, first you want to kind of lay that solidfoundation, then you want to make sure that your walls are square and your roof doesn't leak, and you want to put in all the safety features, like smoke detectors and so forth. You want to really, take care of all that infrastructure and then you want to make the house a really warm and welcoming space. Maybe you want to set up a kitchen table where folks can kind of gather and talk and then add some soft pillows and some cozy blankets, maybe put an apple pie in the oven So for HelpLine, that accreditation process was also about creating that really comfortable space where, it was built on real voices and real experiences, and we were implementing best practices, so that help seekers feel seen and they feel heard and they feel cared for. And we also leverage that accreditation process to make HelpLine an even more inviting space for volunteers. So we're all here today celebrating volunteers. They make HelpLine possible, and we want for volunteering on HelpLine to feel worthwhile and meaningful. And for that experience to be all that volunteers hope for. You know, volunteers contributed over 32,000 hours of service to HelpLine in 2024, and that was possible thanks to over 250 of them. And then another 100 more who were doing internships came from 40 different states. And many of those folks come to HelpLine because they want to give back, but they also have an interest in working in the mental health space in some way in the future. So we partnered with nearly 70 different universities to provide a really rich educational experience for those folks. And so our process, the accreditation process, really helped us elevate that volunteer experience in, I would say, 3 different ways, right? The first was strong foundational training. That's a best practice for HelpLine. So we took that opportunity to broaden our training so that we're really providing that deep dive into the mental health landscape, into mental illnesses, treatment options and recovery strategies. And we're offering volunteers monthly educational webinars and weekly office hours so that they can practice and refine important communication skills. The second best practice that supported accreditation for us is a strength based, supportive, one on one coaching from a helping a member of HelpLine staff. In 2024, HelpLine provided a total of 1040 coaching sessions to our volunteers. So we invest deeply in their development and making sure that they get everything that they're hoping for from that volunteer experience. And then finally, the accreditation process, that also supported our efforts to be a model peer-led program, and one that's really centering that voice of lived experience. You know, lifting others up, it can be a lot at times. And so we strive to support our volunteers with that, too. We offer training on how to best kind of draw from their own life experiences to support others while also protecting their own wellness. Right? So we work with them on developing those self-care strategies. We provide monthly wellness opportunities and all these pop up wellness events where they can learn more about those best practices for caring for themselves while volunteering. So for us, accreditation, both a status and a process. Both a seal of quality and that encouragement to learn and grow as we evolve. That is just an incredible overview. And the metrics that you shared, the quantifiable data in terms of over 70 universities, over 32,000 hours, 66 standards across nine categories for the process. I was trying to write down all of the numbers, and I didn't get all of them, but this is just fantastic. And what you do in terms of supporting the volunteers, is incredible. And this process, the accreditation process, was like, I think it was almost a half year. It was very deep and it was very intentional. And then did you say 345 documents or something like that? That's right. I thought I heard you right. So I wanted to make sure I came back to that. So, and then we have over 250 volunteers across the United States. That makes up that 32,000 hours. So I'm wanting to repeat this because I want our listeners to really hear, the intentionality of our HelpLine and, how our volunteers really have made a difference and the training that our volunteers get, as well as how we support their well-being. And then last but not least, the accreditation process, because this is an international accreditation and it's an extremely, extremely well thought of. So with that said, I want to come back to what you said last, which was about the peer support best practices that the NAMI HelpLine follows. What is the training like? The become a NAMI HelpLine specialist? So I want to hear from you, Megan. And then also Dave and Madison, your thoughts on the training. So start us off, Megan. What are peer support best practices that the NAMI HelpLine follows? So we're pretty proud of our training. It's a pretty rigorous, an intensive process. Our, our hotline specialists take over 20 hours of asynchronous training and then another hour of our roleplay training where they really get that one on one coaching and those important communication skills that I referred to earlier. We work very closely with specialists on those communication skills and, especially with regard to how one goes about sharing one's lived experience. You know, as we say at NAMI, no one gets it like someone who's been through it. Right? And all of our specialists have lived experience of one kind or another, either as someone who lives with the mental health condition themselves, or someone who loves someone who does. And so, being able to tell another person about the path that you've walked, the recovery journey that you've come through, either yourself or with your loved one, can be super empowering. And it can impart a lot of hope. So one of the best practices and HelpLine is to have a policy and a training around how to do that in a way that's really helpful. And that also centers the needs of the of the help seeker in that moment. Thank you. Thank you. Dave, would you, speak about the training just a little bit and then Madison I'll come to you with the same question about the training? Yeah. Very thorough. Again, because of my training background. And it was really a great example of best practices in adult learning. The interactivity, the scenarios, self-paced with a deadline, and then checking in, you know, to make sure that there's comprehension going forward. I really appreciate it. And the tech training was very helpful too because obviously there's some tech involved and you need to be on top of that. And, and then I think finally, the onboarding for me was really, really well, because I was assigned to coach pretty quickly and immediately connected with them. So that sense of, okay, I'm not doing this alone. I've got someone who's there, who's got my back. And I remember that distinct feeling like, okay, I think, I think I can do this with that support. Yeah. Thank you. The intentionality of the HelpLine training is incredible. And the coaching, the onboarding. Thank you for sharing that. Madison, what was your experience like in terms of the training? Yeah, I thought the onboarding and the training process was extremely accessible and also inclusive. You know, as a neurodivergent individual, when I was first starting, the HelpLine, I really struggled with having more fluid conversations. And so, with the support of, Safa Saleh. S-A-L-E-H, I want to give her a shout out. She's a senior coordinator. And, she was my manager. And she was just such an inspiration to me throughout the whole process. She armed me with a connections checklist. So kind of outside of the onboarding and training to help provide a strategic kind of communication framework that would really help me provide the best care to help seekers I was serving. And it really, just elevated my whole experience. I really enjoyed the onboarding and the training, so much so that I went on to, pursue additional training to serve on the TYA or the Teen and Young Adult Mental Health Line. That is fantastic. So now, as we speak about the Teen and Adult HelpLine, I'm going to come back and ask you all about, would you share some of the key elements of peer support that you've employed during your time volunteering? And we're going to come right back to you, Madison. So if you would share that and then I'll come to Dave with the same question. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, as Megan was saying, the HelpLine is just such a powerful space because it's grounded in peer support. I think it's so cool that we get to not just show up as, like experts who are trained, but show up as individuals who have walked in their shoes and have similar lived experiences. So it kind of makes it easier for help seekers to find us in, you know, their fears or questions, their needs. So I learned through the peer support training that there really isn't a one size fits all for providing support, that it's really important to listen first. Sometimes people need like information and referrals, and other times they're really just looking to know that there's someone on the other end that provides that emotional empathy and that care, someone who listens. So that's something that I really led with during my time volunteering. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Dave, what I have been some of the key elements of peer support that you've employed during your time. Pretty much what Madison said. So that's it? No kidding. By the way, I do want to give a shout out to my coach, Johnathon Valenti is awesome. He's just continues to be my great advisor. But I'm really dovetailing on all the great things that Madison said, seriously. Sharing our NAMI voice, which is that lived experience. And I like the fact that what she said to I this idea of listening. I used to always use the term,"let's make sure we listen without our answer running." So just making sure that, you know, you don't assume what the person's journey is going forward. And then of course, the empathy of validation to make sure folks understand that what they're going through is their journey, and that's okay. It's really important for them to hear that, and just letting them know they're not alone. There's hope here. And so I think--yeah, we can go into it and if I'm with a situation with the help seeker and I can contribute some of my experience, sometimes I say, oh okay, well, I guess I'm not alone. I guess this is something that has happened to other people, and that's been helpful too. I really appreciate that. And you said something, I want to come back. It's almost a quote. Make sure I listen without the answer. Can you repeat that one more time? Yeah. We want to make sure we don't listen with our answer running. It's almost like you're trying to put gas in the car, but you're trying to take off at the same time. You got to put the gas in the car. Hold on a second. Don't pull off. It's going back to what Madison said, too. It's this idea of, let's let them, you know, talk first because I was--and I still do this once in a while, but you can tend to jump to resources too quickly. And then listen. And I think now it's--continue to learn, let's listen first, find out what's going on, and then we'll get to the relevant resources. Yeah. That's so critically important. And to both of your coaches, shout outs and appreciation because they care and that's why they're so good at the coaching. So, you know, kudos to them. Megan, anything you want to add about the peer piece? You don't have to, but I wanted to offer that as you're being here with us and your insights. Just how proud it makes me every day to see people, not only be willing to contribute their time to HelpLine, but part of themselves, right? It really takes courage to be vulnerable on HelpLine with what you've been through yourselves as an individual or as a family member. And our specialists show up every day in the bravest, most compassionate ways possible to do that for people, to kind of, lift a lamp for them on some of what could be the, you know, hardest days of their lives. And to do that in a deeply personal way. So, just so much gratitude for that. Yeah. Thank you. And it is that vulnerability. And I know that as I meet people across the United States and listen to their stories, and their stories many times come with just pain and exhaustion and looking for hope, and it's so wonderful to be able to point them to the HelpLine and to our resources and to people that care, and to the point that Madison and Dave have talked about in terms of listening, you know, as a society, we're a cosmetic society, we judge a book by its cover. So what you all do is you get into the table of contents and the chapters just by listening and letting people know they're not alone, and that nothing about us without us. And it's so incredible when someone knows they're not alone. And wait a minute, I'm not navigating this by myself. There's someone else here. So again, it is wonderful. Can you all share--would you share? I always say "can," but would you share one lesson, story, or a situation that really impacted you and that has stuck with you since joining the NAMI HelpLine? Dave, we'll start with you. Yeah. This is a challenge to think this through. I just was thinking about all the different lessons and impactful stories. But I will say this. There was a-- this is a while ago, but there was a couple that connected on the phone with me, and they got on together. And I think it was a middle aged couple, and they were just dealing with an adult child who had a variety of mental health challenges at the time. And they described, I want to use their words, they explained the chaos and the exhaustion that this journey was causing them. And so by listening first, you know, making sure was using empathy and listening and being able to share some of my experiences and stories, and let them know that the challenges that they were experiencing as a family is, you know, a fairly normal journey for many families in that situation. And I think that struck a chord with them. They weren't alone in that. And then I was able to really share some great relevant resources. One of the ones that I love to do is share our powerful affiliates. Know that being able to say, hey, there are support groups near you, very close to you many times, and not only face to face, but somewhere online and I love to be able to share that with folks as well. But again, I think reminding them that they're not alone, that there's hope. And I just remember that you could almost just feel the weight lifting from them. And they were very thankful. And it just reminded them. So again, you know, we're here for you, gave them the hours and I still remember that call. Thank you very much, Dave. Madison, would you share an event or a call or an interaction that you had? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've had the incredible experience of connecting with so many insanely resilient people. It really helps inspire me. Sometimes I feel like the people on the other side of the line really taught me just as much, if not more, than I could ever offer them, despite, you know, the incredible, amazing training that we receive. You know, I spoke with people from all walks of life. You know, I was going back and looking at some of my notes. There are individuals who are incarcerated, just wanting to talk to somebody for a brief moment. Older adults with physical disabilities, grieving deep losses or who are no longer in touch with their family members. Veterans experiencing PTSD pulled off on the side of the road. There is also an LGBTQ plus individual who was really seeking to come to terms with their identity and called me, called the HelpLine, to receive that and help them really be that--take that next step. So I think that, you know, the HelpLine isn't just about giving, it's about growing. I feel like I really got the opportunity to grow along a lot of the people that we serve, in fact, there was one familiar help seeker. She actually was my last and one of my first calls on the HelpLine, and she often would call just, you know, for emotional support and connection. And sometimes we'd go into her interests and she would talk about her love for movies and books. The conversations would go probably a little past the length that we were recommended, but I, you know, I made space for that. And I personally, selfishly kind of enjoyed the connection very much. So we're talking about books one day, and she recommended me-- I told her it was my last day on the HelpLine and she goes, you need to read The Choice by Dr. Edith Eva Eger. I have that book. I bought it because of her, and I have started to read it. So, you know, it just goes to show how much insight you can glean from the other people on the line that you connect with. That is incredible. Thank you. Thank you so much. As I think about this, is another question that, as we get ready to wrap, I want to ask you, Megan has been so generous with her time and said that it also is about exhaustion and making sure that the leadership team for the HelpLine supports and helps you all manage your self-care. So I want to ask a question now because I travel quite a bit on behalf of NAMI, and there's usually lines of people that want to speak, and I don't leave until I've spoke--listened to every one, and there's times when I'll then go to the hotel room or whatever, and I just sit quietly because of all of the stories and the impact. And sometimes I get calls on weekends from parents who are trying to navigate, so what do you guys do for self-care as you take these calls, you listen to these stories and these situations, and you're looking to provide help? What do you do for your self-care? Dave? Yeah, I think what I've continued to learn and remember is, it's good--it's okay to ask for help. If you get off a really tough connection, sometimes it's easy just to keep going and swallow hard and say, okay, you've got this. And when you really maybe don't. The adrenaline's still going and you're still-- it's still kind of on your heart and mind, to pause and maybe just shoot a quick note to my coach and say, hey, you got a few minutes? Or can we do it after the shift just to debrief, to download? Get a perspective. And that's helped me tremendously to make sure that happens. And then also to talk about it with my spouse and other friends, you know, obviously in a confidential way, of course, but to make sure that I'm not holding on to things that might get in the way of, you know, feeling happy and satisfied in life. And I think the other thing is just setting boundaries in my own life and making sure I'm not saying yes to a lot of things and making sure that, I have some downtime and some space. And we we're blessed to be out here in the country so we can get outside and walk around when it's not 12 degrees and it's a great thing. That's great. That's great. So, Madison, I know that you are--I don't want to give it away, but I know you have been a runner. But what do you do for self-care? Yeah. Running is a great outlet for me. You know, you can jog. Doesn't have to be a sprint. But most days, when I'm not running, I'm gratitude journaling. I like to start my day off every morning, just listing quickly in a five minute journal, here are the top three things I'm grateful for today. And it can be as simple as my warm cup of coffee. You know, my big window in my small New York City apartment. Those are typical ones. So I try to keep gratitude first and foremost in my life. When it comes to the HelpLine itself, I think that the team provides such an incredible layer of support. There were times even I would have a crisis call or a tough call, or maybe felt like I honestly didn't navigate that call the best that I would want to, and show up the best I would want to. The team would always jump in and say, hey, Madison, you know, do you want to take five minutes? Just to recuperate? Ten minutes for your mental health? They would always check in with you and they made you feel really seen and supported. And I really appreciated that as well. And like Dave, I would lean into support from outside the HelpLine as well. My mom, the same person, who was on the other end calling with me, was also hearing me talk about my experience on the other side of the line. And, you know, just reminding me of how far I've come and just saying, you know, yes, it can be challenging, but it's so worth it. And it's so fulfilling to me to be a part of this process. So those are some of the things. But I guess gratitude is the short answer. Thank you. Journaling. Gratitude. Running. Mom. It's all good family, you know, community. And I'll share a story with both of you all or all three of you now is that last year, I was taking a lot of calls on the weekends, and they were from parents that I had met or that got my number, and many times they were at their last resort from the standpoint of they felt that they had tried everything and I was taking calls at pretty much every weekend on my mobile phone. And Dawn, Dawn Brown, the National Director for the HelpLine, she said, Dan, are you okay? After a full workweek and then the weekend and then the exhaustion from the standpoint of the calls, she said, okay, we need to think about some things here. So she actually said it to me. She said, are you okay? And let's pause for a minute. So Megan, anything here in terms that you would like to share before we go to our closing question? Yeah, that being okay yourself part is so, so important, right? It's super important. And we talk about that all the time on HelpLine. And I can hear it. And I want to thank you both for sharing how helpful it's been for both of you. We emphasize that for staff, too. So my self-care practices, I'm very fortunate to live by a nature preserve. It's about a block from my house. I walk in there every morning for about an hour and a half so that I, you know, I get that really deep, deep immersion into, the woods and the birds, and the deer and I come back soon ready to tackle whatever HelpLine brings us that day. So that being okay part, it's really a essential. It is, it is. And, you know, I also thought about a campaign for the HelpLine, "Did You Know?" And that's part of what we're doing today is talking to this audience. Did you know? Did you know we have a helpline? Did you know what we do on the HelpLine? Did you know all of the resources? Did you know how to connect? Do you know how to connect? So this is absolutely wonderful. And, I would offer to you as we wrap up, here's the last question or probe and really wanted to get your thoughts on it. You know, we always conclude our podcast by asking this last question of our guest. The world can be a difficult place and sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. That's why with each episode, we dedicate the last couple of minutes of the podcast to a special segment called Hold On to Hope. One of NAMI's five values and our most important value. Megan, Dave, Madison, can you tell us what helps you hold on to hope? So what helps me hold on to hope is kind of a vision. It's sort of a micro practice that I've talked a lot about here at NAMI and that I use almost every day. I draw strength from visualizing being part of a vast network of helpers all around the world. So when I need to fill up on hope, I just call to mind that network of helpers. I think about other helplines and other hotlines. I think about counseling offices and hospitals and doctor offices. I think about schools and universities, about fire engines and ambulances and group homes and shelters, and places of worship. I think about libraries. I think about barbershops. I think about all these folks who are all part of this vast, healing network of everyone, everywhere on the globe. And I keep going. That is wonderful. So, Madison, how do you hold on to hope? I think that, unfortunately, pain and suffering and struggle is a part of life, but it can be exacerbated when, especially if you're experiencing, you know, chronic physical condition or a mental health condition. You know, when I started getting into my running journey, which kind of coincided with my mental health healing journey, I started following this, really famous, long distance runner named Courtney, and she dubbed this term called the Pain Cave. And basically, it's this sensation that happens that, after you've been running for a certain amount of time, long stretches like 13 miles, lactic acid builds up in your legs, and it makes it almost impossible to keep going. But you keep taking that next step. Your mind can physically like-- you can keep going. You can. And I deeply believe that. And I apply that principle not understanding to the hardest, you know, moments of my own life. Yeah, and also what Megan said, like, we're all in this together. There are people, now being on both sides of the line, I see, how much people care and that on the other side of the line, like the people who are actually making this possible, they're not here, you know, to cash in a paycheck and leave. People are here, you know, like Dave, like who is giving back, like, outside of his work, like, you know, like me. We're here. We don't have to be here. And knowing that so many people care is such a great reminder as well. Thank you. That's so well-put. And as you mentioned, that 14 mile and that lactic acid building up and then all the way to hope, and it's hope about all of us being in this. Yeah, it's so, so well-put. Dave, close us out with what helps you hold on to hope. Yeah, I think it's a lot of what Megan and Madison said so well. It's, first of all, recognizing and seeing the people who have continued to have maybe a journey, but they're brave and they're in there and they're hanging in there and they're contributing, and they're willing to be vulnerable and do the work that needs to be done. And I've always felt this, too, that, I've experienced it in my own faith, but also I've realized it's a real thing because sometimes it can feel buried or this kind of thing that's out there, but it's-- it is stronger than darkness. It's stronger than circumstance, it's stronger than turmoil. And for me, remembering that it's a real thing because we've-- I've experienced in my own life, I've seen it in others' lives as well. It's something that we can count on all the time. That is wonderful. And I would, offer to all three of you that, you know, hope, is about all of us and about the work we do. And it's the collective of us caring and giving of ourselves to help others. And, it is-- it's just wonderful to be a part of it. And I look at this world as a father and as a son and as an uncle. And so to see what you all do and how you instill hope in your work is so gratifying. So I want to say thank you sincerely. And as we wrap this up, I want to say to Megan, to Madison, and Dave, thank you for being with us. Thank you for your work and your volunteerism with us. It is so much appreciated. This has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and find local resources, visit NAMI.org/help, text HelpLine to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI or if you like numbers, 6264. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org. I'm Dan Gillison, your host. Thank you for being with us today and be well.