Take Time to Recharge Featuring David Ko

Taking care of your health includes mental health, too. In this episode, NAMI CEO and host Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. is joined in conversation with David Ko, CEO of Calm and author of the #1 bestselling book, “Recharge: Boosting Your Mental Battery One Conversation at a Time.” Together, they discuss why David wrote “Recharge,” how Calm highlights mental health at work, and supporting youth as they navigate life both online and off.  

Learn more about David's book, "Recharge: Boosting Your Mental Battery One Conversation at a Time" 

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.

Episode production is provided by NAMI staff, including Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.

Transcript

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Everyone thinks their brain is a supercomputer, endless amounts of computing power. But we all know that we need to rest and charge, just like your phone needs to be charged. So every time you look at your phone and you're looking at your battery, just check in on yourself or go check in on someone else. Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. My name is Dan Gillison, the CEO of NAMI and I'm your host. NAMI started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. And there's five reasons. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. And last but not least, hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode, with each conversation brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone. NAMI is focused on highlighting stories of lived experience during Mental Health Awareness Month, this May, and through the rest of the year. At NAMI we believe, in every story, there's strength and every person who joins us on the podcast shares their story in helping to develop this collective of hope. Today's guest knows that sharing personal stories makes mental health conversations more accessible and actionable. So our guest is the CEO of Calm, David Ko, one of Rock Health's Top 50 Leaders in Digital Health.

He is the author of Recharge: 1:55

Boosting Your Mental Battery-- I'm showing it here.

Recharge: 2:00

Boosting Your Mental Battery, One Conversation at a Time. And David has been so noble to have all proceeds go to NAMI. Thank you, David. So this book takes a straightforward approach to discussing mental health through revealing conversations with leaders and experts across multiple industries, across multiple sectors. The book was released on the 17th of December of 2020 for Recharge podcast is a five part limited podcast that features Common, Chelsea Handler, Sheryl Lee Ralph, Jordan Chiles, and Kevin Bacon. So I want to open up by, first of all, thanking you, David, for your support of NAMI and being so kind as to provide the proceeds of the sales of the book, the selling of the book to us. So that's the first thing. And I want to start out by asking you, the cover of the book is something that captured me, which is, you know, we talk about inclusiveness at NAMI, and you talk about on the cover of the book,"boosting your mental battery, one conversation at a time. Real talk on stress with rebels, rappers and innovators." I can't think of a more inclusive title. So may I ask you, what inspired you to write this book and write it now? Well, Dan, first of all, thank you so much for having me here today. Really appreciate it and really looking forward to today's conversation. And thank you for that thoughtful intro. I really wrote the book because I wanted to take a heavy topic and make it a lot more approachable. You know, when we try to talk to folks about, you know, mental health, particularly in the workplace, I don't think it's always addressed. And it's something that I really wanted us to start to have more of a dialog around. I do think actually, the conversations around mental health today in society, have been the most approachable than they've ever been. But somehow when you shift into the workplace, that approachability kind of stops. And so I wanted to go spend some time with a number of different people across a number of different industries, and really just talking about their own journeys and how they recharge and how they handle, mental health and how they handle stress and anxiety. That's all around us today. Thank you. As you, talk about this, what is some of the work that you've seen from some of the great names that have joined you on your podcast? Yeah, I-- I have been very, very fortunate, like you to have so many people that care about mental health wanting to come and talk about it. And, you know, first off, that that's the part that I'm just so appreciative of. And I think we tend to forget how that conversation is not so accessible in all parts of the world. My own parents today, I'll tell you, Dan, they live in Korea. And in certain parts of the world, like Asia, the approachability of mental health isn't there, and they're starting to make inroads, but they haven't made the inroads that your organization of NAMI or others have here in the States. And what I really appreciated with folks like Kevin Bacon, Chelsea Handler, Jordan Chiles just coming on and speaking with me about their mental health journeys. It was just how they just handle it in the day to day. And all of them had a story and it was approachable. It was authentic. And I could have spent hours talking with each and every one of them. Yeah, I imagine you could just like, we could probably talk for hours as well. Love to reach into not just your 'why', but your 'how.' And you know, you mentioned that operative word 'care.' And, you know, we say that people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. And as I look at your body of work over the years, over the last 20 years, it is clear that you care and you're looking to make a difference in this space. And we know that David Satcher, the 16th Surgeon General, said, "There is no physical health without mental health." And it's so cool that you're trying to bring that conversation in to the workplace. And you're right. It's almost like it stops at the door. Culturally, sensitively, and in all ways, those leaders of the future are starting to see that opportunity for their workforces as they bring people into their workforces, that if they bring mental health into the conversation, it actually is, a retention strategy. Oh, absolutely. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, from the standpoint of, we're starting to see CEOs that are embracing the conversation more, either from their lived experience or from the numbers, because they spend so much sourcing, hiring, training that they know that they need to provide benefits to retain the talent. So I'm interested in your perspective on that being a CEO. Yeah, yeah, that's--and thank you for asking that question. And maybe the first part of it was just around the linkage part that you brought up around your physical and mental health. I think so often they've been treated separately, as you know, and today we're in a place where we all recognize the linkage between the two that if you have mental health issues, it will lead to physical health issues. And if you have physical health issues that can lead to mental health issues. And if those two are combined in the health care system, we know that it can cost the health care system 2 to 8 times more. And then you think about that in the workplace and what that may lead to. Actually, one of my podcast guests that I had on Recharge was Common. And I loved his, he kind of took a step back and he said, here's some four pillars that I really live by. And he talked about food, the body, the soul, and the mind. And I love how the linkage was there in terms of both physical and your mental health. You know, as you start to go into the workplace, I think what we have found in this always on, you know, kind of workforce that we have with our phones, it's really hard to disconnect. And we take work home with us for so many of us, or we take that stress home with us. And we know when we take that stress home with us, it may not lead to the best family conversations. It may not lead to your best sleep. You may not be your best self. And that spirals and can kind of add when you go back to work the next day. And what we have found is, as you start to take care of both your body and your mind together, and you think about that from a workforce perspective or just even a life perspective, you can be more productive at work. And also that could lead out into your home life as well. Yeah. We've heard this term in work of, presenteeism where a person is present, but they're not engaged. And it's because of something that's taking place either with them directly in terms of their mental well-being or a loved one that they are concerned about, but they're present at work, but they're, you know, 7.5 to 8 hours of a void because the body is there. But they're not engaged in the work. And we recognize that that costs billions of dollars to American industry and also to the well-being of that person, because what they are navigating at work, they like you said, they take home with them. Yeah and you've seen this, too. You know, when you poll workers today, 71% of them, I think it's north of that, say that they're stressed and they have some forms of anxiety. You know, our workforce is telling us they're stressed. I think almost 50% of the world today says they have trouble sleeping at night. So if you really think about those two things starting to compound on each other, and over a billion people have identified saying globally that they have some form of anxiety or depression, you start to see that all of this is bubbling, and we're probably underreporting many of those numbers, as you know, today. And so the problem is probably much worse. And, you know, when you really think about it from the younger generation as well. So if you think about how they're growing up, you know, obviously in the smartphone generation and how that's going to affect them when they go to work, too. So there's just, there's all these things that are starting to compound that we have to start to get ahead of with organizations like your own or things hopefully that were in my book around recharge or the podcast really just giving people kind of ideas, tips and thoughts on and how you can take breaks and how you can take care of yourself. So can I pivot to that right there? How can you take care of yourself? And again, I have to keep bringing it up because'recharge,' it's something I need to do. And I would offer to you that as you gave that model of lack of sleep this and that. I'm like, is David talking about me? No, because I'm part of that number. And how do you suggest that people recharge? If you could give a couple of tips, and then I want to pivot over to young adults and technology. Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different tips. But first off, what we tried to do was, again, as you take that heavy topic and simplify it, make it much more approachable, want to treat your mental health like a phone battery? And, the meaning is the following, which is everyone thinks their brain is a supercomputer. Endless amounts of computing power. But we all know that we need to rest and charge and recharge as well. Just like your phone needs to be charged every night. And so, you know, I wanted to ask a very simple question that I heard from a really close friend of mine that just said, like, how is your battery? And, and you could say it's at 25%, 50%, 75%. And then and by based on your response, the things that you may do may be a little different. I'll give you some things that I do today, if I need to recharge quickly. Sometimes I may go for a quick walk. Sometimes I may just, you know, text somebody. Sometimes I may call someone. I really recharge by having conversations. Sometimes I just put away the phone. You know, it's always on me. And sometimes I'm just like, I need a little bit of a break. And sometimes I just need to stretch my legs. Or sometimes I need to recognize that having 3 to 4 hours of back to back Zoom calls isn't probably a best thing for my mental health. And so there's a lot of different things that I think each of us can do to recharge, depending on how we're feeling. But that's why I wanted to take that concept of the phone battery. So every time you look at your phone and you're looking at your battery, just check in on yourself or go check in on someone else. Thank you very much. And I think about that often from the standpoint of back to back meetings, either in person or over Zoom. And where I want to go now is that, during COVID, Zoom was the way for us to connect. Now let's back up to our young people that are coming into our in the workplace. They grew up with technology. So they actually trust technology more than the human interaction, first and foremost. The second thing is that it's almost like the phone is an appendage to their hand and you can't separate it. So in your work, David, over the last, you know, years, what have you seen in terms of detaching young people and helping young people actually put technology in its place while they take care of their mental well-being? You know, I think there's a lot of different theories that are out there today in terms of how do you start to build healthier habits. And, you know, part of us just even having this conversation, hopefully, I would say young adults starting to see this conversation or listen to this conversation is just is really important. And what I would tell you is you're right. When you look at folks today, their phones are like an appendage, and they pick them up quite frequently. We when we looked at how many people pick up their phones throughout the day, you may pick up your phone. The average is about 160 times during the day, but depending on the age demographic, as you get younger, that number goes a lot higher. And they don't even know it. And I think one of the important things there is just to really recognize that, hey, I may be looking at my phone a little bit too much. Maybe I need a little break from that phone. Maybe I also need to understand that there's certain apps out there that may make me a little bit sad. And what apps out there will actually be a part of the solution? That's actually why I'm so excited here to work and so proud to work at Calm. It's not a product today on a personal front that goes out there and is social in nature. It's actually, it's really built just for you and your own journey. So it's about, how do you think about and care for your own mental health? And that's really part of our company mission. On a personal note, is it's really kind of being with you every step of the way in your personal and your mental health journey, because it is a journey for each and every one of us. It is. And, you know, thank you because we know we have Calm is a part of our portfolio for a stigma-free workplace. And as we think about stigma-free workplace, we know decades ago as we were trying to reduce the carbon footprint and businesses were looking at, you know, CEOs were looking at getting their boards to approve millions of dollars to build new buildings. That said, if approved, board, this building will be LEED-certified and we will reduce the carbon footprint and we'll do all of this. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had those same CEOs, standing in front of their board saying, I want to create a stigma-free workplace, and here's one of the products that we're going to have inside of that. You mentioned Calm being personal. Could you tell us a little bit more about Calm? Because I'd love our listeners to understand, because we've become such a microwave society, we move so fast that we move past things that really can help us just too quickly. So would you take a moment, a few moments and tell us more about Calm? Yeah. Yeah, and I'll tie it to a personal and professional journey and so on the personal front with Calm, and this is really part of the book around, recharge as well as why I wrote it was I started suffering panic attacks as a young child when I was 14, and I didn't quite understand what was happening, whether it was the tightness in my chest, the sweaty palms. And, my mother is giving me great advice over the years. But there's one piece of advice she didn't give me was she said, you know, you just got to power through this moment. And I wish I had products like Calm back in the day to really help me in my journey, whether it was as a young adult or whether it was in the workforce. When I got into banking, I didn't have techniques to handle my own stress, so I turned to unhealthy habits. I turned to unhealthy habits, like smoking, for example, and I knew over time that the combination of this, you know, whether it was with food or whether it was with smoking, lack of exercise, that really was creating a bad spiral for myself, both from a mental and physical standpoint. I understood that language much better as I became into Calm. And not everyone can be the CEO of Calm. And so that's why I was so grateful to have conversations, to write the book, to do the podcast so we can get out some of these messages about, here's healthy habits that you can go do. You know, here's apps or products and services, whether it's NAMI or Calm or others that you could turn to help you in your journey around mental health? And so that you won't turn to some of those unhealthy habits that I had turned to when I was younger. And lastly, you know, on Calm, the one thing also on a personal front before I talk more on the professional side that I'm really proud of is, I have two daughters who are 17 and 14. I didn't have a lot of products prior that I would really encourage them to go use that I had worked on as a company. But I'm really proud of the fact that they both use Calm on their own. And that we could have conversations around your mental health. I didn't have these conversations with my own parents when I was younger because I didn't-- I don't think they had the dialogue to have these conversations, but today I have them with my own children that I'm really proud of. That's led to Calm and really, the whole company was built around this narrative of making the world healthier and happier. It's simple, but really bold, Dan, in my opinion, about, you know, if we could make the world a little bit healthier and happier wouldn't we all feel a little bit better about ourselves? And that's really bled into everything we do as a company. And it's really driven me on a personal front. You know? Thank you for sharing that and sharing your story. And from panic attacks at 14 years old to being in banking and picking up smoking and just the stress managing you versus you being able to manage it. We probably have some listeners that are navigating that right now. So, you know, thank you for sharing that. And that goes to your 'why.' You lead a very busy life, David. You do quite a bit. You do quite a bit on multiple coasts for your university and things like that. When did you slow down and when did you really investigate and reflect on your'why' that made you do this book? Yeah, I really wanted to do this book around the 'why' because I realized that as I was meeting incredible CEOs and they were talking to me about their mental health like a John Sculley, for example, the former CEO of Apple, Jack Rowe, the former CEO of Aetna, they would speak to me and give me just great advice about what they had done to talk to their employees about mental health, fortitude to build a better workplace. But when I asked them, do they talk about this on a broad scale, they would say, no. And I would be like, well, why not? Like, let's bring this out to more people because it's so inspirational. I'll give you an example. John Sculley and he has talked about this, really said that the ways for him to connect more with his employees when he wrote his first business card was to say he was 'Chief Listening Officer,' that he listened first, spoke second. And I've really taken away a lot from him. And that simple kind of advice he gave. Jack Rowe said, every once in a while you have to get out of gear. Meaning, you know, if you push yourself in fifth gear and you're there for too long, you got to downshift and get out of gear. You don't get out of gear, you're not only going to burn yourself out, you're going to burn everyone else out around you. This type of advice that each and every one of them was sharing was so profound, I just wanted to share it with everybody else. I also wanted to take that approachability around mental health that we're having in society. This moment where so many people are having conversations around their mental health and be like, let's have this around work as well, because mental health in the workplace doesn't lead to a weaker workforce. I actually believe it brings you tighter together and actually builds a more resilient workforce. And that actually can bring you together from a culture perspective and an employee bonding perspective. It took me a while to be able to share my own stories about the smoking, the child, you know, my panic attacks. But I realize if I don't have these conversations with my employees, how do I expect them then to open up as well? And so I had to show that vulnerability that people in my book were showing. People on the podcast were showing, and then it was a moment to say, how can we really make this go full circle? And then also, you know, to donate all the proceeds to NAMI. To let people know that there's many ways we can help. And I'm just really excited and honored to be obviously a part of the NAMI Foundation as well. We're so honored to have you with us. And, you know, we're guided by three strategic pillars, ensuring people get help early. Early intervention. Helping people prioritize mental health, and increasing access to care. As you think about your body of work, how does that align with the way you view mental health care? We're almost in parallel. You know, every second of every day somebody is using Calm. It's actually what stresses me out on a personal front. You know, people often ask me, you know, how--what's it like running Calm? Are you guys all sitting around meditating all day? And I'm like, no, I'm super stressed. I'm super stressed because every day someone is relying on us in their mental health journey. And so, you know, when you look at the numbers like you talked about

just in access: 23:45

3000 counties in the US, 60% of them don't have someone you can turn to from a professional or specialized standpoint. Most doctors can't get you to behavioral services in time, you know? So access is a big issue in many parts of the United States. And then magnify that across the world where the approachability isn't there. So with products like our own that we have here at Calm today, we hope to make that access easier for folks. So for people that do raise their hand and say they need help, they can actually get the help that they need in a faster manner. I think education is so important. And so all the pieces that you were talking about lather in so well to the things that we're trying to achieve. Thank you. When we were together at the launch of the book, you shared a study. You had just been with some young adults, and, I'm trying to reflect on what you shared because it was like an "aha" moment for everyone that was listening. But for those young adults, too. David, can you reflect on what that was? It was some kind of a test or assessment you'd given these young adults and you probably remember it very well, so. Yeah, it was the fact that on your phones today, you can see how many times you pick up your phone. And for many of them, when I asked them to go into their settings and screen time and look how many times they picked up their phone, they were, including the people in the room quite shocked, at how high that number was. And I think that's, most people just didn't recognize how often they do so. When we asked them a follow up question about, well, every time you kind of pick up your phone, how many times do you check in on yourself, you know? And that answer was zero for most people, right? It was like, I don't--I don't check in on myself. What do you mean, I check in on myself? Or how often do you check in on someone else? And for most people it was zero. And I think it was just a little bit of a reminder to say, hey, we pick up our phones a lot. We know they're going to be around us. You know, it's just like, is there stress in the workplace? Of course, there's stress in the workplace, but how do we work around some of these things? And so I can come back to that in a second. But on the phone part, it was just about, well, if when you check in on your battery on your phone, as you pick it up, just make sure you check it on yourself or check in on someone else. And I think that really lit up an "aha" moment for so many. And then there was something we did with the Surgeon General, Dr. Murthy, and he did something great. He just said, you know, let's send an affirmation out and then hold up your phone, turn on the light, and everyone take a photo. And everyone just had this, you know, big smile on their face. It can be simple acts of kindness that just create just so much hope. And I think just can brighten up someone's day. And so I thought that was just a really great reminder for us all. It was so much appreciated. And I watched everyone that was at the launch and they were captivated by what you were sharing. So, that was really cool. Thank you, David. You mentioned coming back to stress in the workplace. So can we go there for a second? Absolutely. So you were saying that there are different things that we know, that stress exists in the workplace, and that there are things that we can do to navigate it, to manage it versus it managing us. That's right. You know, two things I often find when I talk to lots of companies that I've been fortunate to have conversations around, the number one thing that can lead to workplace stress is work balance. And so for many employees today, that work balance isn't there. And the second thing that happens on top of that is the communication. And so those are very, very tightly linked, meaning, you know, we often get things that we're asked to do. And that's just normal workplace work. You know, you're asked to do like, another set of reports or a different type of product or a project or something, but you're not explained to sometimes well, why you're supposed to go do these things. Why does it matter? What does it lather up to? We make a lot of assumptions that you know the answer. And, and I'm also guilty of this. I've done this to employees at times where I've said, this makes complete sense to me. But they don't-- They don't say anything back to me. They're just like, "yes." And then they go away. You know, then the second thing I realized is, I'm stacking. And what I mean by that is, I'm stacking their workload and I'm not taking anything away. So I'm very conscious now where if we give things to our employees to go do we make sure they understand the 'why' of why they're doing it. And this goes through all levels of the organization. And we're also very conscious of stacking. If we're asking to do two or three things, we're also asking what are those one, two, three, or four things that we should be taking away? Because we tend to forget, like, you know, if we make everyone run after the bright new shiny object and there's still work to be done, but sometimes have to ask ourselves the question, is that work really important? Does that work need to be done, right? And how often do we find like, oh, wow, we're making people do all these things, but they're not really that important. So it's really around like communication, work, load management. And I think if you, if you can just handle one or two of those things, you can actually find your employees really appreciating, you know, that kind of new narrative going forward. You know, that is so interesting because that 'why' is so important. And then saying, okay, what am I loading, stacking you with? But what am I taking away? I want you to start doing this. What do I want you to stop doing because I've loaded you up. You know, we all, as leaders have our, mantras or our models. One of mine is, "knowledge allows you to do by choice what others do by constraint of fear." So I don't want you to have the fear that the CEO has said, go do this. I want to empower you with telling you the 'why.' What it is that we need you to do and the 'why' behind it, because that will really help you do it in a whole different way than if it's just something that says that, well, this is a mandate. That's so true, right? The 'why' that you just said is-- and I love what you were talking about. It just--it's as simple as that. Just explain the 'why.' Yeah. Just explain the 'why.' So sometimes people will step back and say, I'm explaining to you because this is the 'why.' So I appreciate that. You know, on previous episodes, we've talked about different strategies adults can use to teach their kids how to navigate mental health through action. For some people, that looks like explicitly telling they're feeling down and explaining how they will navigate those emotions. And sometimes it looks like demonstrating, putting your phone down and walking away to enjoy some detached time. As a parent with your daughters, how do you teach them about the apparent connection between mental health and technology? In one of my podcasts, I had the honor to spend some time with Jordan Chiles and I love a quote she had, so it's just in my head and she said--and this isn't necessarily just around technology because she had, guardrails around technology being an Olympian and an athlete. So she kind of understood that there was a balance that she had to hold. But when she talked about life, she said, life is like Sour Patch Kids, sweet and sour. Some can be sweet and some can be sour. And I think about it from technology in my own children to say it's like, you know, here's kind of the balance that we want to, for you to understand. We can put guardrails around how much screen time you have and all that. And we do have some rules. But the fact of the matter is, at some point you're gonna have to manage it by yourself. And so we're not always going to be there. And so what we've tried to do is really three things. The first that we've tried to do is to say, hey, let's not have your phone right next to you when you go to sleep. I think that phone ringing all throughout the night is definitely something that can really affect your sleep. And right now you need good sleep because you're working and studying and you've got a lot of, you know, school pressure. So, get a good night's sleep. And it's actually no different than I talk to my employees. But the fact of the matter is, for most adults, you will put your phone or have it next to you, because some people will use it as an alarm clock. Some people listen to Calm, so we know, we'll have it. It will be close by you. The second thing I often, talk about with them is like, let's just go back to some family practices and that family practice around, you know, one or two dinners where our phones are kind of to the side where we can be present with one another. You actually talked about presence earlier. And I think sometimes that presence is lost where we're just really present. We're there sometimes at dinner, but we're not there. So it's okay. You don't have to be present every conversation. You know, if I'm just being completely honest here, we're not going to be present in every conversation. But once or twice a week, let's have a family dinner and let's just all sit around and have our phones to the side, be there, like in conversation. How was your day? Talk to me about your week. And for me, it's just been, it's also great because I notice myself sometimes having the phone next to me at dinner. And if something's happening there, I'm looking at it. It's really subconscious again, but it's distracting in the moment and people may not think you're paying attention. And so it's that as well. And I'll tell you the last thing is really around with technology. It's like, hey, recognizing when your battery is low. This goes back to the recharge in the book. Let's go use some techniques. Sometimes it is you're dehydrated. Go get some water, get some food, get some sleep. Go take a walk. Go listen to some music. Do things that can just make you feel a little bit better. I remember at one point, my kids were listening to me when I was first promoting Recharge, the book, and in December when it came out and I had listened to a Taylor Swift song,"Shake It Off." And yeah, it was a little bit of a day, but it that brought a smile to my face. And my kids were like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just I'm recharging in my own way. That's it. That's it. I love it. So, you know, I'm almost taking you off of script because I just enjoy so much our interaction and us having real conversation and having what I call an executive conversation. So hopefully you're okay with it, with how we've done this. I want to simulate something real quick. You are in a room with a group of Fortune-- and you've probably already done this. You know your 'why,' you got it. There's other CEOs that need to get it, and you would probably welcome being able to help them get it. You're now in a room with that group of CEOs. Ten to a dozen. What would you tell them that could help them with real talk about stress and about recharging? I've been in that meeting and in that room many times, and I've had this conversation more times than I can count with individuals. And, you know, sometimes they go really well, and sometimes it can be quite frustrating because I think everyone acknowledges the importance of mental health in the workplace. There is nobody-- I have not met anybody that says mental health in the workplace is not important to me. I haven't met anyone that says, well, most of them have programs in there, you know, EAP, Employee Assistance Programs or in your benefits that talk about your mental health, which I think is great. They don't all promote them, which I think they could do better. I'm always like, look, you're doing the basics, but you could do a little better, right? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, why don't you send an email? Why don't you promote some of these things? The second thing I sometimes ask them is, why don't you share some of your own personal stories here? You know, each one of them has a story around their mental health and their own journey. No different from the people I've interviewed on my podcast. No different whether they're Olympians, whether they're athletes, whether rappers like Common, who I had, or Macklemore, whether business leaders, all of them have a story around their mental health, and they're just-- and they're very vulnerable and they're just very open around these conversations. The third is really just, I tell them a lot of times, having conversations around your mental health will make your culture stronger and will bring your company tighter together. It is not a form of weakness. And if you do believe that, we're still in the early innings of this. It will bring your company together because they're all having these--they're all having the conversation, you know, and so whether you want to recognize it or not, your employees are dealing with a lot. I've seen with my own employees, I've seen with my own parents who have to be caregivers for others. And so I just see this constant thing where you may leave work, but you really can't be your best self unless you've had the conversation, right? And I just think that's a really important thing in life for us to live by. I'll give you one last example. I interviewed someone in my book. Carl Nassib, the first openly gay player in the NFL. And he said something where until he came out, he couldn't be his best self. But once he did, this weight had been lifted. And not only was-- he did he continue to be successful in the NFL, he was successful as an entrepreneur now with his with this company. So he's been successful in two different businesses going forward. So it's actually allowed him to be his best self. And I think unlock it so your employees can be your best self and it starts with you. That's why I tell a lot of CEOs today. You know, that is wonderful. And as CEOs look at shareholder value and they look at those quarterly, you know, returns in terms of, how they're doing in the market and they look at it every 90 days. Just understanding the value of this, it will be so cool for so many because once they get it, it'll move them so much further ahead. So I appreciate this so much. David, before we wrap up with my last wrap up question, what haven't I asked you that you'd like to share or speak to? Well, I mean, I think, I think we've talked about a lot. And I really just appreciate the dialogue. I think the things that I really want to continue to reiterate is that, you know, this doesn't have to be a heavy conversation. You know, it can be a light conversation. You know, it can be a conversation around your battery. But we have to start by being present with one another. I think presence is really important. I love the analogy where we come back to the battery a lot. You know, I found myself even a CEO at times, and this is where I'm a lot more intentional because you use these words as well. I used to ask employees, how are you doing? But I didn't really want them to respond in the moment because I was in a rush to go do something else. I just want them to say, I'm good, I'm fine. Now I'm a lot more intentional with my words. So if I ask you, Dan, how you're doing and you say, fine, I'm like, how are you really doing? And if you say fine, that's great. But if you say, actually, I've got some stuff on my mind, I'm not going to run out on you. I'm going to stay there. I'm going to listen. I'm going to be intentional. I'm going to be present with you. And I think that for us in life, if we can be a little bit more present with one another, if we can be a little bit more intentional with one another, a little more compassionate I think we can make this whole world a better place together. Thank you. You know, David, we're so aligned. I challenge our employees that if they care about someone, when they ask them how they're doing and they get the cosmetic answer,"Oh, I'm doing fine," be comfortable in saying, okay, you just gave me the cosmetic answer. How are you really doing? And if you're doing, fine, I'm good, but I care. So I'm asking you. So, it's such--it's so cool to do that. And so something else that you, you're helping me with is that I'm in meetings and staff. All of a sudden they see their battery on their phone going down, and they say, does anybody have a power cord? Does anybody have a power cord? I've got to charge. But we don't do that with our brain. Our mental battery is going down, but we don't reflect. I don't know how to articulate it, David, to say, wait a minute. I'm looking at this doggone phone and the battery going down. How's my mental battery? That is so powerful. Recharge and boosting your mental battery. And unless we having these conversations, it won't happen. But we've got to build that muscle, I guess, of doing the same thing we do with our phones, with our brains in terms of, wait a minute, this battery is draining. It's so interesting because we will have a sense of urgency about that device that we need to have with our brain, and that's why this is so important. I mean, just think about it. When your phone shows that it's red. For many of us, including myself, there's terms around this. You start to panic. You're like, oh my God, your phone's your lifeline, and if you don't have a charge somewhere, you're like, what am I going to go do? And you run around and you realize, for so many people out there today, you take better care of your phone battery than you do your personal battery. And all we're asking you to do is to treat them the same. You know, treat your mental battery like your phone battery. So if you're taking care of that phone and you're got it in a nice cover and you always want to make sure it's charged and you've got, you know, just why don't you do that with your mental battery? And I think sometimes when you talk to other CEOs or you talk to other employees or you talk to people out there and you say, hey, look, whether you're at work or you're out and about. Same thing, right? And if we're going to take care also of your mental battery, just be a little bit more thoughtful around that. And I actually think we'll--you'll start to see not just your mental battery recharging. You'll also see your physical battery recharging as well. You know, I'm excited because this is happening at the right time. And I think there will be so many that will get so much out of this. I can think of being in places where someone will say, I mean, they may not even know everybody there. They say, does anyone have a charger? Does anyone have a charger? David, this is such a powerful body of work. And it's kind of like I'm having an 'aha' moment. So my apologies in advance to the folks listening and to you, sir, but I would tell you that. Yeah, I just was-- that somebody-it's strangers."Does anybody have a charger?" They will borrow someone's charger they don't really know because they need that phone charged. But what about this, this thing above our shoulders in terms of yeah, yeah, this is really-- that's really good. You know, before we conclude, we always ask our podcast guests one last question. And framing it, the world can be a difficult place and sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. That's why with each episode, we dedicate the last couple of minutes of our podcast to a special segment called Hold On to Hope. David, can you tell us what helps you hold on to hope? I'll talk about it from business and a personal perspective. On the business perspective of Calm, I go back to every second of every day someone is using Calm, and that gives me a lot of hope that people-- that we're helping people all over the world in their mental health journeys to be a little healthier and happier in life. And you know, I think in a world today where it's always about being always on multitasking, we try to show some of the simplicity of some of these techniques. And so when people ask me, oh, meditation seems so hard, I go back to, well do you breathe? And they say, yes. I'm like, well, that's a form of meditation, you know. Do you like listening to music? That can be a form of meditation. So in its simplest form, you have to see what kind of works for you in the moment. Things I do on Calm, for the most part, I don't always use it for the sleeping part that most of our users use it for. I use it for that simple breathing exercise of 90 seconds, just in and out, and that helps me a lot of times recenter enough to then go to the next thing. 90 seconds. 60 seconds. That's all it takes. So it's not the 20 minute or 10 minute type of exercise that you may think. So there's things for everybody along the way. And some people, if you need a little bit more, you may need a little bit more. Also on the business front, I feel very blessed that we've had millions of people who have given us feedback along the way that we've helped them in their journey, not just by telling us they use us in the product, but by going out there and giving us feedback in the App Store and others about how we've helped them. So over 2.5 million reviews here, as part of our 180 million downloads of the product in 190 countries. On the personal front, I start with family so often. I have found when I've had conversations with my own girls that yes, they may overuse the term, Dan, around their mental health, but we're having a dialogue that I wish I had with my own parents when I was younger. You know, we're having a dialogue today that I know one day they'll have with their own kids if they choose to. So they'll have this conversation. And hopefully when you go look and we look, you know, ten, 20, 30 years from now, this conversation is in a very different frame. We're no longer going out there and saying, business people, let's, you know, they're having the conversation at work. They're having the conversation all over the world. It's as-- it's approachable. And we all recognize the importance of your mental and your physical health and how tightly intertwined they are. So for me that, that's what gives me a lot of hope today. And I know it does for you all and NAMI because I think so much of that overlaps, you know, in terms of how we talk and how we think. Yes, it does overlap. And we're full of hope because of these kinds of conversations and these kinds of relationships and partnerships. That's what gives us hope, because we know, like I said, at the top, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And Calm has demonstrated that in this relationship. I love the subtitle in terms of one conversation at a time. And that's what this has been right here. So as we close out, I just want to say this has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI helpline and to find local resources, visit NAMI.org/help, text 'helpline' to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI or if you like numbers, 6264. Or if you are experiencing immediate suicide, substance use, or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org. I'm Dan Gillison, your host. Thank you for listening and be well.