Treasuring Moms’ Mental Health Featuring Kate Kennedy-Lynch, Barb Solish, and Alessandra Torresani

Becoming a parent brings many changes to anyone’s life. To add to the changes, balancing new or forthcoming parenthood with mental health conditions might feel difficult. In this episode, guest host Barb Solish, NAMI’s National Director of Innovation, is joined by Kate Kennedy-Lynch, NAMI Director of External Relations, and Alessandra Torresani, actress, podcast host, and NAMI Ambassador. They discuss their own lived experiences navigating mental health conditions before, during, and after their pregnancies, sharing what they’ve learned throughout their mental health journeys. Finally, they share ways they’ve found to balance mental health and parenthood for Mental Health Awareness Month and Maternal Mental Health Month.

Find more resources about maternal and new parent mental health at nami.org/NewParents

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.

Episode production is provided by NAMI staff, including Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.

Transcript

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I think that that's why maternal mental health has become so important to me even more so than regular mental health, even though I live with the mental illness because it's something that's not talked about as candidly. Because as moms, we are so fearful that we are going to lose the one thing that we've worked so hard to be able to protect and keep safe. But I want to change that stigma, and I want to say, hey, it's okay to vocalize it. They're not going to take your baby away like we're just here to help, and let's all figure out the safest and best way to make you the best version of yourself. Welcome to Help Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I'm your guest host, Barb Solish, NAMI's Director of Innovation joining Hope Starts With Us today to discuss a topic I care deeply about with two women who I admire, and I'm so excited to chat with. NAMI started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. Hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective, so we hope that each episode, with each conversation brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone. Hi everyone, I'm Barb Solish, your guest host today. Just to introduce myself a little, like so many people who come to NAMI, I live with mental health conditions. My symptoms started early in my teen years, but I didn't get treatment until my college age time. So it turns out that I'm a statistic. 11 years is the average delay between the onset of symptoms and treatment. So I'm at NAMI because I want to change that. I'm also here because I lost a dear friend to suicide in 2017. His family turned to NAMI in their darkest hour, and they found support and hope when they need it the most. So it's an honor to work here, and it's an honor to host today's episode on a topic that means so much to me professionally, but also as a mom. May is Maternal Mental Health Awareness Month, and we're shining a light on the experiences of moms living with mental health conditions, whether they've been managing them for years or only since pregnancy. So let me share a quick snapshot of maternal mental health. Maternal mental health refers to mental well-being during the perinatal period, which means during pregnancy and up to about two years after birth. Every year, 500,000 pregnant women in the US experience a mental health condition, but 75% of them don't get the mental health treatment they deserve. So there's a lot to discuss on this topic. I am thrilled that I'm joined today by two incredible guests: Kate Kennedy-Lynch, NAMI's Director of External Relations, and Alessandra Torresani, a NAMI ambassador. Kate, Alessandra, can you kick us off by introducing yourselves and sharing a little bit about how you found NAMI and your mental health journeys? So as Barb said, I'm Kate Kennedy-Lynch, I'm the Director of External Relations for NAMI National, which means that I have the immense pleasure of working with our incredible corporate partners and funders to ensure that the work NAMI does continues to happen. I actually started my career in event production, so I had a little bit of a career journey straight out of college. I was in the sales. I was kind of a sales associate at a catering company down here outside of DC. And then, after that moved up to New York City and was working for an incredible agency there producing events of all shapes and sizes. And then in 2019, had our daughter, which is very exciting. And as soon as she was born, I felt terrible. And so I, you know, I would talk to other friends who had babies around the same time. They'd say like, oh, I feel pretty good. I'd say, I have no idea what that means. Like, I just have no idea. And so finally, there was a, you know, some email from some list that said, if you feel baby blues for a few days, it's one thing. If you're feeling symptoms for two weeks or more, you should probably see some help. So I took that as my sign. And that was about six weeks. So I, you know, told my ob-gyn when I went in for my singular, you know, postpartum check in and she recommended some therapists and things. And of course, that list was mixed in terms of people being available on that list and practices having closed and things. And so finally then I asked the facilitator, I guess, of our new parent support group that I went to at a yoga studio in Brooklyn. I'm still friends with a lot of those moms actually, which is very nice. But she recommended some folks. And so I reached out and I explained some of my symptoms to this therapist. And I'm happy to talk about my symptoms, too. Just as a content note. I'm happy to share them. So if you want to fast forward, you certainly can. But, the story that I told her that sort of led to the diagnosis was that I was having some suicidal ideation, which is why I flagged this for my mom and my doctor. But then the story that I told my therapist one time is that my daughter was-- this was-- so this was much later, actually. She was 7 or 8 months, like she was sitting up. I remember we were sitting on the ground at the playground. She picked up a piece of bark, like from the playground and popped it in her mouth, as babies do. And, I, you know, we fished it out of her mouth right away, no problem. But I sat there and just stared at her and thought like, what if I hadn't? What if there's still a piece in her throat? What if there's still something that's going to get stuck there and it's going to ruin her life? Like, what do we do? Do I stick my finger back in there and be sure we got everything? Like I'm a terrible--I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I let her put that in her mouth. And so I told her that and she said, you know what I think you have, she said, beyond postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, she said, I think you have postpartum OCD. And I said, what? What is that? I had no idea. I'd never heard of it. You know, in 2019, it feels like the postpartum anxiety conversation was just starting. And so that was when I sort of was like, oh, there's this sort of spiraling thoughts aspect to this. And what are my compulsions? Like, I kind of didn't I don't know what my compulsions, you know, I was like, oh, I'm-- I wash the bottle parts all the time. And I, you know, those kinds of things. But the obsessive thinking was actually sort of the outstanding piece of my journey. So then I had my son and, you know, I continued therapy. I had my son in 2022 after I had come to NAMI in 2021 and felt really good after his birth, I finally felt I was-- I remember saying to my mom, I'm like, this is what people talk about whenever they feel good after birth. And then slowly but surely, you know, about a year later, as I was weaning breastfeeding, all my symptoms came rushing back. And having the opportunity to be at NAMI, I talked to colleagues far and wide who shared their stories and talked about SSRIs or antidepressants. We talked about psychotics. We talked about their journey with, you know, we were talking about long acting injectables with some of our partners. Like, really, it, for me, changed my perception of medication. And so that was when I sought treatment with a psychiatrist, restarted my therapy journey, and finally feel like things are, you know, in a pretty good place, so-- Can I ask a follow up question before I go? Of course. I just. I feel like I'm in the middle of a therapy session right now where I'm feeling this like aha moment where I've, I've heard of the postpartum OCD, but it's something that was never brought up to me, I guess. I, you know, I guess I'll get into my story, but I always felt mine was just postpartum anxiety. But when you just said the compulsive thoughts and all that and like, that is exactly what I had. And like, I never heard that. It makes so much sense because I am someone who suffers OCD and I have my whole life, and it's funny, it's always helped me in the benefits of my mathematics in class where I was a number OCD person, where, you know, I always had to add things to become one number. Or if I see a license plate, I have to remember that number. Those are the kind of compulsions. It's less the typical OCD people think that's like, oh, you're just a clean freak, or you're like, washing your hands all the time, like, mine is definitely mathematical. But I was having such obsessive thoughts over and over every single day that certain things would trigger. And so hearing you say that, I'm kind of like, oh my God, like, I need to go talk to somebody because that's exactly what I'm going through, still, like. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? I had a colleague actually come forward too after, I think I shared my story somewhere within the organization, and she said, I have that too, and I thought I was the only person. And I said, me too. I mean, I was the only one that I knew who had that diagnosis, but it's, you know, it's on the international OCD Foundation website as a, you know, it's a subset of OCD like it's a real--it's a real thing. It's a real thing. Wow. Well, Kate, that was so beautiful. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I remember you talking to me actually shortly after starting medication. And I remember you saying, you know, I've lived with this for so long and all of a sudden for you, the voices of those compulsions and those intrusive thoughts quieted. And how that was just so different. And, but you being open about that to me was special, too. Like, just having these conversations makes a really big difference. Yeah, it really does. It really does. So Alessandra, tell us a little bit about your story. Oh my gosh. I have so much that I want to share, but I'll do it in a very like pint-sized version. I'm an actress and I, you know, I'm very in touch with my emotions. I always have been my entire life. I feel like I was born to do this. But for me, I was showing signs of what I did not know was bipolar one disorder from a very, very, very young age, starting at about three years old, maybe even a little bit before, but I was not formally diagnosed until I was about 21 years old after having a severe panic attack on a set and actually being diagnosed, or not being diagnosed, but being introduced to the concept of bipolar disorder from an acupuncturist who actually worked with a lot of creative types. And I was explaining my symptoms and all the things, and he said, I really think that you need to talk to a professional and bring up bipolar disorder. This sounds maybe possibly this is what it could be. This was after, Barb, we were talking how it takes 11 years for a diagnosis. This is after years of me being put on antidepressants, and that made my highs higher and my lows lower and gave me suicidal ideations that I never had before. You know, the misdiagnosis is so-- that's a whole other episode and a whole other story where that it's so tricky, right? And still, here we are, someone who's-- Right? I'm an ambassador. I believe in therapy. I believe in medication. I'm like, wait a second, Kate, I feel like that's what I have. And I never heard that before. It's always a new discovery. So when I chose to start having-- trying to have a baby, I actually got off my medication slowly, slowly, slowly. It was a very long process with lots of doctors and lots of professionals around me guiding me through, making sure I was okay. And, well, there-- the second trimester was very tough for me, which is apparently supposed to be the happiest trimester, for me, it was not. And so hearing that stigma over and over, I felt like, oh, something's wrong with me. Like I should be happy. Why am I feeling the worst I've ever felt? Why do I not want to continue on? I had my baby and she's here now and she's almost three and she's wonderful. Her name is Lady. But something that I was not expecting, even though I host a mental health podcast and I had all the maternal mental health specialists on, I was not expecting to get postpartum anxiety. I was not expecting to have severe, graphic, intrusive thoughts all the time. You know, I wasn't expecting any of this. And so even though I was prepared from hearing all these stories and all this, I didn't know what to experience because I hadn't experienced it yet. And I felt scared to talk about, even through my pregnancy, I felt scared to talk about if I was having suicidal ideations, if I was having these severe intrusive thoughts. Very scary, graphic things, because I was like, oh, they're going to take my baby away from me. So I don't want to say anything, you know? And I was very lucky to have had created so many resources through NAMI, through my own podcast, through just friends and family and having that support system around me. But it's a very scary, lonely time. And I don't know if you girls went through this, but I had such a support system and I felt lonelier than I ever had in my entire life. Which was crazy, right? Like why? You know? But now to look back at it. But I find that it was a blessing that I experienced what I did in a way, because now I feel finally at a part in my-- of my journey, almost three years postpartum, where I can talk to other moms who may be going through it. And, you know, Kate, I'm so happy that you shared what you did because now I'm like, oh, that's what that was. Okay, now I can identify that. Now I can go and work on that issue that still is inside me. But just on a side note, I think a lot of women have wonderful first pregnancies and they think, oh, this is amazing. And they have-- the postpartum experience is wonderful. And then it's almost the second time around that sometimes it could be really triggering or something comes up or you get the postpartum anxiety and you didn't have it the first time, so you think something's severely wrong. And I actually have been, you know, speaking with a few people in my life who are on that second journey, you know, through pregnancy and postpartum. And they didn't experience it the first time. And so I'm so lucky that I have these resources and I can be like, you know what? I these you listen to this podcast, I think this is going to help you or I think you should reach out to this organization. There's a great, you know, mom group or mom circle that you can join. I think that that's why maternal mental health has become so important to me, even more so than regular, you know, mental health, even though I live with the mental illness because it's something that's not talked about as candidly, because as moms, we are so fearful that we are going to lose the one thing that we've worked so hard to be able to protect and keep safe, you know, but I want to change that stigma, and I want to say, hey, it's okay to vocalize it. They're not going to take your baby away. Like, we're just here to help. And let's all figure out the safest and best way to make you the best version of yourself. That was a really long winded answer. I'm sorry. No, it's so helpful. It was so helpful. And you know, I can relate to you a lot. One, because I have both bipolar type two and going into pregnancy, it was so challenging to talk about medication and to figure out what I needed to do and what was risky, what was not risky, and this whole range of things. But there was actually an element for me of feeling like it was a hidden strength in that I knew what to look for, for mental health conditions, right? Even though, you know, you may not feel like you can act on them. You know, maybe you're not going to get the-- ask for the support. But at least you know what signs and symptoms those are for your mental health condition that you currently have, right? I can chime in on that. Yeah, I had the opposite experience. You know, supposedly, you know, in talking to therapists and psychiatrists and stuff over the years, like, I guess I probably lived with an element of OCD before this happened, right? Like it's always been there to some degree, but I had no idea what to look for. And I had, you know, the things that I was experiencing were so different than the things on the Instagram carousels about postpartum depression, and it just didn't look like anything that anybody was experiencing. And then, Alessandra, to your point, which, thank you for sharing your incredible story, I felt like I was sitting there, you know, I was living in New York City, I have an incredible partner and this, like, beautiful baby. And it's like, why do I feel so-- you know, I have a job. And yeah, everything was, everything was, you know, on the surface, very, you know, right. Like everything should have, should have come out a certain way. And that feeling of-- and I think it's a mom feeling like I should be able to do it all and I shouldn't feel terrible. And I have all the resources in the world, but still feel so-- you know, it's really it's an interesting thing to experience, sort of for the first time on the, on the back end of pregnancy too. So it's, so interesting to hear your all stories kind of heading into pregnancy that way. And then mine is like coming out of pregnancy. So it really-- it's such an all encompassing conversation. So let me ask you then, both of you, what you wish, both respectively, would have known. So whether having a mental health condition or not, wish someone would have said upfront, hey, FYI, this. What could have been helpful to you? I don't know, because that's like my honest answer. Because I'll say this someone had recently reached out and was like, hey, you know, what are your top maternal mental health episodes of your podcast? Can you send them to me? And I was like looking back at them. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I had one of the heads of Cedars-Sinai. It's a huge hospital here. It's where I gave birth. She was one of the heads of the, you know, postpartum area, you know, of-- my mom brain, right? It's a real thing. You know, one of the areas. And anyways, I had this specialist on and like, I didn't listen to anything she said. Like, I didn't digest anything, right? I listened, I edited the podcast. I was the one that put it out. I was the one that did the social media. But like, I guess I didn't absorb it in the way that I wanted to because there were so many like, incredible resources and things that she had given in that episode that I was just like at a loss. And I think when, you know, you're just so drained after birth that it's like so hard for you to think about anything else because you literally switch, especially the first six weeks of like, you go into survival mode, you know, and you're like, I have to survive and I have to keep this baby alive. And I remember I wouldn't even let my husband push the buggy because I was like, oh my gosh, the buggy is going to let go. It's going to go down the street like it's going to like fall and crash and like that's-- and I mean, that was going through the first like, you know, six weeks. And then it continued with the intrusive, obsessive thoughts, you know. So I mean, I guess the thing that I wish I knew is, I wish I knew earlier other moms that maybe were going through immediately what I was going through because hearing it from someone who's experienced it, that was great. But the moment I felt heard and the moment I felt like a safe space, if you will, was when I started a mom music class and it was like, I think a Lady was like 11 weeks old and I was like a crazy person hosting sitting at my house. I was like, I don't care. Like, I just need these moms because it was the actual physical connection of just knowing someone else is experiencing something at the same time as you, and to know you're not alone. Like I think that that's what I wish I had. It's not what I wish I knew. I wish I had that a little bit earlier going through it. Yeah. I love that. I love that. My mother-in-law actually told me, hey, sign up for a support group now. And that was like when I was six months pregnant. Sign up now. And it wasn't a specific-- it was just moms getting together and it made such a big difference. We met like three weeks after I'd given birth. So right away, really. And you start that community and it makes a really big difference. And I'll make a quick plug for our partner, our friends at Postpartum Support International. They have amazing support groups, free support groups online for all sorts of postpartum conditions, for pregnancy loss and so much more. So I'm just-- Oh, I love that. Oh they're fantastic. Yeah. And I actually--I mean, I'm in the same, in a similar boat. I think that was one of the things too, that, I don't know if anybody told me that or if it was something that we just kind of found at our yoga studio, the new parent support group. But it is the one thing that I always pass along, too. I mean, if you do one thing, get yourself some people around you who have experienced or are experiencing the same thing, like you said, Alessandra, at the same time, I think I'm similar to you, actually. I don't know that there's anything that I-- you know, it would have been nice to know about postpartum OCD, like, would have been nice to know that that existed. But, you know, this is the first time that I'm speaking in sort of a public way about it, but I, I speak pretty widely, even as privately about my experience, because I just feel like if I had known somebody, if I had seen somebody who was going through it or talked about it or said, you know, I'm thinking about medication or oh, yeah, I'm going to take medication, like, whatever. It's no big deal. You know, I think that that would have maybe would have changed my own perception of myself more than anything else, that it's the thing that people experience and, you know, shows up fairly commonly. And, so I think I'm actually the same. I think that it, it's part of the reason that I share my story so much is because I really needed that. And I think it's such an important piece of postpartum journey. Thank you, Kate. Thanks so much for sharing, too, both of you. I mean, this is like, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to share your story, and it makes a huge impact as you were saying. I think with you both, I feel like I'm in such a-- this is like my two best friends. Like, because we've all experienced it. Yeah, we've been through it! That's why I'm so strong and community. And I feel like honestly, the moms that I, you know, started this music class with. I'm still so close with them years later because, you know, some of them are on to their second and some are on their third babies already, you know, and it's just like being able to know that we went through it together and like the tough times and you know, oh, you know, is your baby doing this? Like, are they hitting this milestone? And it was less about like a competitive edge. It was more of just like, hey, you know, I'm really going through a tough time. Can someone help me out here, like-- or what do you recommend? Or, you know, we had a friend in our group whose father, you know, got very sick with cancer and passed away during that experience. And, you know, she really just counted on all the moms to kind of get together and just do like a circle of, you know, good energy. And so I feel like that's why it's so important. It's less about like, being like friends, like, so your babies have friends. It's not about that. It's about you. I'll say one more thing that I wish that people would have said to me. I wish that people would have put more postpartum care on my baby shower, and like your baby registry, like there's this amazing company called Anya, and they're a postpartum, like, supplements. They have tonics. It's all about, like, you know, helping with your breast milk. It's a very, like, it's an amazing company. It's fabulous. But I wish, like, that was on my birthing, you know, a whole thing. Like, for everything. Like it was like I didn't need a baby onesie, you know what I mean? Like, that was nice, but it was like, I don't think we care about the mom going through that. And it's of no--anyone's fault. It's just, I think that maybe if you are a mom, be more sensitive to that and make sure the moms okay. Like, bring them soup, you know, I mean just the postpartum care of like, community and family. Like we forget tribes, you know what I mean? It was like we used to have, like, these huge, like, families that would take care of one another for weeks on end. And you didn't have to worry about that. We don't have that anymore. And so if you could be that family and that tribe for your friend, like, I think you could do, that. Community is so important-- so, so important with family. And I will say there's pluses and minuses. I'm thinking because, there's no shortage of advice when you're pregnant, I feel like from your community. You know, like don't eat sushi, don't take hot baths, don't sneeze too hard. But not a lot about mental health. That feels a little murkier. I did not get a lot of information going through pregnancy about my mental health. I had my own information working at NAMI and my own experience, but I'm curious if you all have any thoughts on like, misconceptions or myths you've heard about pregnancy and or motherhood and mental health? Anything that you feel like that should maybe be cleared up. I mean, I feel like everyone told me the second trimester was like the best. And so that was like the biggest myth or misconception I had. You know, it's like everyone's like, oh, once you get the first trimester, once you get through it, like, it's so beautiful, and then you, like, the third trimester, it gets tough again. And so for me, I felt like truly an insane person that needed to be in, like, a hospital, you know, because I was so mentally ill and so sick at that point. And I just felt like the world was caving in on me. And I didn't understand hearing other people say that this should be the most joyous time. And I think when you're told something and you're feeling the complete opposite, you're like, something's wrong. Like, I'm sick, I'm sick. But then I was afraid to admit that I was sick because I had done so well on not being on the medication and taking almost a year to, you know, conceive so we could not be on the medication, you know, and so I think that that was really, really tough. And, and I would say that, yeah, I think that everyone's experience is different. And so never say, oh, once you get through this moment you'll be fine because you don't know if someone's going to be fine. That's great advice. Yeah, that is great advice. I don't know if it's a myth so much, but, and you know, maybe it's a little bit back to our last part of our last conversation too. But I feel like it would be amazing to have a little bit more postpartum mental health care built into the postpartum period. Or more opportunities for check-ins or just the normalization of, Alessandra, like you were saying, like everybody's experience being so different. And so in the postpartum period, I think it would be amazing if we're able to ensure that somebody in a woman's circle, whether it's a clinician or part of the, you know, continuum of care or whatever it is, or if it's just like somebody in their lives is not saying like, don't eat this. This isn't how you swaddle a baby. Don't-- you know, like somebody saying, hey, how are you doing? How are you holding it up? And not just in a, like, oh, you know, not sleeping, but really in a-- but like, is that okay? Are you okay, though? You know, I think that's kind of the--like, if you, you listeners, dear listeners, if you can be that person in somebody's life and just be there to listen to them and support them and--I think that would be the nicest. Something that I experienced that I just thought of that really actually helped me a lot is, you know, I practice transcendental meditation, but it was really hard once the baby came to continue that practice. But something that I did do, and it's not for everyone and it's very woo-woo, but I did, hypnobirthing. And of course it didn't go as planned. My birth experience, like, you know, all this stuff, you know, but there was something about me training my brain to kind of be in the moment, be present. And the hypnosis part of it helped so much throughout, I would say, my postpartum journey as well, because I would listen back to those, you know, hypnosis and the hypno-like, you know, songs and stuff like that. And it kind of just put my soul kind of at ease, like when I was feeling that stress and that anxiety. So if you are, you know, currently pregnant, I would look into it because it was something that was really helpful actually postpartum to me as well. Like that helped out instead of like, you know, you can't go and do a yoga class the second week you're, you know, giving birth, you know. You know, you can't get right back. If you're someone that exercises all the time and that's your way of kind of clearing your mind, you can't go back and do that right away, especially if you have a C-section or if you have, you know, I had a really bad birth experience with, you know, hemorrhaging. So, like, I couldn't go back for a very long time. This was something to kind of put my mind at ease without sitting there and being like, you know, it was a good way to kind of just clear my mind. And I would really just recommend that. That was just something I want to throw in. No, I love that. I actually, I found an app that was about hypnobirthing as well. And it was, it was like my version of the Calm or the Headspace app. Yeah, it just helps. It was great. It was really great. And, and that's one of the things I think I would have never, you know, it's not me to like, want to do that, but I tried it and it was great. I think for me, some of the myths and misconceptions, I was really worried about medication as being pregnant with medication. And I spent a lot of anxious time researching, seeing specialists, seeing what I could be on and not be on and weighing the risks. And I think there's sometimes a flat, and I'm not speaking to all people, but there's this assumption that you cannot be taking a single thing, to be pregnant. And or it's dangerous. And of course there's risks for all things, as we learn when we talk about eating sushi or, you know, all of those things, but there are really great resources, really great doctors who specialize in maternal mental health that you can see and consult on your medications. Massachusetts General Hospital has a center for women's mental health, and they have pretty much every medication and the latest research on it related to pregnancy and postpartum. So I just-- it was something I thought, oh, I'm going to have to change everything in order to get and be pregnant and have a healthy pregnancy. And that just didn't have to be the case. Certain things had to change, but you also have to prioritize your own mental health, too. And that is a huge piece of health as well. So that was just something that came up a lot for me. And it was-- it was a big worry. So I just yeah, I wanted to share. I wanted to share that as well. I mean, this has just been such a great conversation. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That was-- that's such a good myth to share and encouragement, I think, for people to really look into it and think you know, talk to their physicians and the people involved in their birthing journeys and make sure that they can stay healthy because that is such a-- they as like the birthing parent, mother, like, can stay healthy because that is half, if not more of the puzzle, right? Like you have to keep a parent healthy. Mental health is a huge part of that. I think that goes to your point about asking parents how they're doing, because so often we're focused so much on new life and which is so, obviously, makes total, total sense. But somebody has to care for that new life. And they need to be healthy to do that. So it's really important to keep all of those perspectives. I'm curious now that your kiddos are all birth-side and pregnancy postpartum rearview mirror, I'm just curious how becoming a parent has shaped the way you care for and manage your mental health now. I think, you know, as I said in the beginning, it has changed everything for me. Medication has been life-saving. And I think even if you have a, you know, medium mental health condition, it can change your life. Like, it doesn't have to be suicidal ideation. I had a, an appointment with my psychiatrist early on. She actually specializes in reproductive psychiatry, which is incredible. So I love talking to her and just getting her thoughts on, you know, all kinds of things like perimenopause, you know, just like things that are just coming into the sort of frame, the normal conversation now. But I remember talking to her and she said there are two things,'cause I was kind of like, I don't know. Medication? Like, am I really going to do this? Like, am I really-- is that the right fit for me? Can't I just like, muscle through it? And, you know what-- some of what she said was like, well, you're already seeing a therapist. You're already exercising most days. You're already, like, eating well and generally taking care of yourself and trying to sleep as often as possible. Like, she's like, it seems like you might need a little help. You know, the other two things she offered was, the first one was, you have to think about the dynamics of your family, and it was not in a blame way. So it was like, not in a, not in a way that was like, it's your fault if your family's mess. It was like a, you have to think about the way you interact with your kids and the way you interact with the world, and what they will learn from that and what they will learn from you. And, you know, I mean, we're all going to mess up our kids in some way, so like, why not eliminate that one at least? She didn't say that, I said that. But the other piece was, she said, you have one life. You have one life to live. And so why spend it feeling bad when you could try this and potentially feel better? And I sort of looked at her and I was like, well, that was a convincing argument. Like, I really-- and that was after our second was born. So that was really a year and a half, so 2023, somewhere 2023. I've been here-- I've been with NAMI for two years, and I was all still sort of like, but is the medication route really the route? You know, do I have-- do I need to? And so, and that was, you know, like after my symptoms returned, basically after that postpartum period. And so even a year and a half out like we talked about postpartum period being two years, I think it's kind of like three or more. You're never really, truly the same after you give birth. It's part of the reason I'm so passionate about what NAMI does and having these conversations, it has encouraged me to take care of my mental health. I speak openly to my friends about being in therapy. I really-- I encourage other people to seek help along, especially other moms or birthing parents, like, it's just an important part of the process. You just have to ask for help. Why suffer if you can get the help that you need? You know? Thank you, Kate. It was so beautiful. Thanks, I mean it very sincerely. I think something that's changed for me is everything with my mental health in a really weird way. I feel like my brain has been completely reprogrammed. And I'd be curious, Barb, with you, because we do have a similar diagnosis. Yes. Bipolar one and two is very different, but it is similar. I do wonder if you almost feel at some part like, oh, I'm not-- It's not as bad as it was. I don't know if that's just me, and I think it's because my brain was completely rewired to focus on this human that I brought into the world, and I don't have time to sometimes be sitting in the intrusive, like the obsessive thoughts that I used to. My obsessive thoughts are now more about her life and like, oh God, is she doing--you know, it's more about that. Opposed to me spiraling as what I found, which I don't think is healthy either, but I am, I'm working on it, you know. This is a little bit different, but I think something that's drastically changed about my own mental health is being aware of putting a word to the feelings and like allowing her to understand what that is. I never felt shame with mental health or with the diagnosis. At a very young age, my mom, at five, had me in hypnotherapy trying to figure out, you know, why I had certain symptoms, not knowing it was bipolar disorder. She was my biggest advocate. But I think that it-- we have language now for certain feelings, for certain actions, me being someone who lives with bipolar disorder, I can see certain signs in younger children that maybe we didn't know what it was. So for me, I'm kind of very open with my mental illness with my daughter. Yes, she's two and a half, but we are talking about that because I want her to know right now, mom needs to take a bath and I need a moment because, I, otherwise I'm not going to be healthy and, like, it's okay to take that moment for yourself to do that, you know? We try to teach her breathwork. We have her meditate with us just so she can regulate her emotions. Because I don't know, Kate, if you were on here earlier, but I was sharing with Barb how my daughter discovered her voice of sass and, like, stood up for herself, and I'm like, oh, wow. I don't have to worry about anyone defending her honor. She's doing it for herself. But it's also being like, okay, I see this, and I recognize this because I was very similar. And it's not saying she has this diagnosis, but it's like, okay, I needed to teach you how to regulate that emotion so she doesn't fire back and, you know, feel, you know, hurt by that or what-- It's about teaching. So I think that's what I've now focused on with my mental health is, oh, wow, I can teach this little, like, critter like how to regulate themselves and work on mental health and maybe be the change for that generation. My focus has now been on her mental health and seeing other kids and teaching, maybe teaching parents, you know, if they're overwhelmed and they're like, oh my God, my kid must have ADHD, they must have this. And I'm like, no, they just need to be taught to regulate their emotions. And then maybe they will have that later. And maybe that is something that they have to be on medication. But let's try some other ways to help put a name to a feeling. I think putting names to feelings help kids understand, right? They put a name to a color. They put a name to a, you know, a letter. Why can't we do that for the feelings and the emotions and regulating that. Yeah. And I think similarly, too, like even talking about medication with the kids, like I take-- I have asthma too. So I have to take two different inhalers and take it like a daily allergy-- like all the things. And so, and then I was taking my other medicines and you know, my daughter was like, what's that one for? And I said, oh, that's for my lungs. And she's like, oh, what's that like inhaler for? It's like, well, it's also for my lungs. And she's like, what's that one for? And I was like, well, that's for my brain. And she was like, what do you mean? I said, well, just kind of helps mom's brain work a little bit better. Like it helps me function a little bit better. So even talking about-- It's destigmatizing it. Yes. Yeah. And so like giving that language to them to say like this is how I'm feeling or helping them, like you said, with breathwork or we were just watching an episode of Sesame Street and Elmo was barely breathing. And so we did some of that. And so, you know, just like putting-- saying, you know, this medicine helps my heart and this medicine helps my brain and this-- you know, like, it just, it's just part of your body. It's something you take care of. And so it's similar to that, like-- It's normalizing it. It's not hiding the medication and like, oh my God they can't find this. It's like, no, it is what it is. And mom needs this. You know what I mean? And that's okay. You may need it, but you may not. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. It's beautiful. You know, I'm so with both of you. I, like--on this on this journey, I think I learned that caring for my mental health isn't like, a nice thing to do. Like a luxury or like when I have time. It's essential. Right? And it's not just for me anymore. It's also for my daughter. I think, like you were saying, it models strength, it models vulnerability, and it models self-respect and self-care. So I think one of the hardest lessons of motherhood that I've learned living with a mental health condition is that for me, that love alone doesn't fill your cup. You have to keep filling it yourself. And I think that for me, means asking for help, admitting when you're struggling, and reminding yourself that perfection is not the goal. Presence is. So we're there. So no one should have to navigate this journey alone, as we've talked about. And I think the more that we all talk about mental health like we're doing today, the more we break down stigma for ourselves, for the next generation, it all makes a difference. So I just want to thank you both so much for sharing your stories, friends, and being here and talking through all of this with me today. Yeah. Thank you both so much. It's so, healing honestly, to be kind of in this room with you both and getting to talk about it and hopefully helping some other, some other folks too. And I got to tell you, you know, meeting other moms like you two, just hearing your stories makes me go, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not, you know, losing my mind over here. Hearing about the, you know, postpartum OCD. That is something I'm going to look into because I still feel that. And I just thought like, oh, I'm just-- must be, you know, crazy. You know, it's like just a symptom of bipolar disorder or something. No, it's like an actual thing. Maybe there's something that can help me get through that, you know? And I think a lot of women are doing this alone. And I think that, you know, I want to clarify that when I say to people, you know, find a support system, it's not about finding like, you know, a lover or a partner that's going to help you because those partners sometimes are not what, you know, you need. You need another mom that's been through the experience or going through it with you to really not feel alone. You know, like I said, I had a whole family here and it was not-- in this little room that I'm in and I would just, like, cry I felt so alone. So it's about finding connections like this, you know? And if you could share that postpartum support group as well afterwards, that would be great because I would love to share that with people as well. 100%. And before we conclude officially, I want to ask the question that we always ask every podcast guest on our show and that is, the world can be a difficult place, right? And sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. That's why on each episode we dedicate the last couple of minutes here, to a special segment called Hold on to Hope. So, I'll start with Alessandra and move on to Kate. Can each of you tell us what helps you hold on to help? Oh, gosh, I'm so emotional now. I feel like what makes me hold on to hope right now, it's my daughter and her little friends. These brains are so fun to watch, and they're so exciting to see and grow and learn. And every day it's a new experience. And when I see, you know, she takes a deep breath and when she's feeling upset and that calming thing like that heart to heart connection, like when I hold her, I'm like, oh, wow. Like the I have hope in the world and I have hope in humanity, I think when I see that. And I have hope that I'm doing an okay job as a mom because I see how empathetic she'll, you know, if there's a kid crying, she goes up, it's okay. Like it's okay. And I'm like, oh my God, she's two. Like, how does she know that? You know? And maybe that's just like the aliens that made or something, like, made her like that, but I like to think, you know, it's because I'm an empathetic person and she's seeing that and she's copying that. And so I have hope that that we can heal each other. That's such a good one. I love that, the idea of healing each other and parenthood is wild like that. Isn't it? You really-- there's so much healing that happens by watching this little human grow outside of you. It's like the most-- one of the most trippy parts of parenthood, I think, is sort of watching that happen. The thing that gives me hope in addition to, you know, Gen Z and our kids, which I guess are Gen Alpha, maybe. I--what are they? I don't know. And you know, Gen Z being so open and really, you know, demanding the conversation to happen, like, even in their workplaces and, getting to talk to some of our partners about that, like, well, our younger employees are saying we have to make sure that, you know, insurance plan covers mental health care and stuff like that. It's kind of amazing. But again, I mean, one of the reasons that NAMI's work is so important to me is because I think it is what sometimes, you know, in-- on dark days or in dark moments, like, it is what I have come to really cling to in terms of seeing people really out there doing the work. Like NAMI has been around for 46 years. The organization has seen a lot happen and weathered a lot of storms. And I think that seeing, you know, people like our advocates even like, you know, volunteers putting forth all of these, all their voices to, you know, push for Medicaid coverage and, really just seeing our team come together and having so many people so willing to. And both of you really like seeing both of you be so willing to talk about your mental health and share your stories. And, you know, knowing that there are people out there doing this and doing hard stuff, through sharing their stories and working through their stuff and figuring it out, I think is really, really helpful. I love that. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. So this has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you're a new or expectant parent looking for resources about mental health, visit nami.org/NewParents. You'll find information about mental health before, during, and after pregnancy with practical advice and guidance from people like us who've gone through it. If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and find local resources, visit nami.org/help. Text "helpline" to 62640 or dial 1-800-950-NAMI (6264). Or if you're experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 908lifeline.org. It has been such a pleasure to be your host today. Thanks for listening and be well.